Need info from an electrician

[Senator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud It is up high (because that is where the wire ended) and is into our bedroom behind our door... DW has a calendar over it... they said it would look bad in the bathroom as it would be seen easily in the mirror.... DW is fine with this.... did not think about adding a plug... thanks...

If you have an attic above that room, the junction box could have been in the attic, not the room.

I have worked with many handymen that cover them up routinely. It is not code, and if a wire nut ever comes loose it is near impossible to diagnose the issue.

A plug works the best, and even if it is a poor location, maybe better than a blank plate.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound ... And usually, you do not use EMT inside drywall, but if one wants to, why not? ...

It is code here. Every house I've seen in this area is all conduit. Except for the old, old places with knob and tube. But any rehab means replacing it all. I think you can get away with short runs of armored cable (BX).

I know conduit is not common elsewhere, but it is what I grew up with, and it's weird for me to see these TV handy-man shows with wires just running through the wall.

Advantage is, you can pull new wires through the conduit, no ripping out walls. We had a small fire in our old house that damaged some wiring. They just pulled new. No mess at all.

Quote:

With either one, you are not going to replace any wire or pull new ones through the conduit after the circuit is installed. It is hard enough with all the pieces loose on the ground.

I've done it. Pro's do it (but I don't think educated fleas do it. <sing-song>). It can be a challenge sometimes. They make a wax for it, it really helps.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Too...1012/202266595

-ERD50

[ERD50]

More Chicago area vs the rest-of-the-world electrical trivia:

https://www.reddit.com/r/chicago/com...hese_sideways/

Vertical outlets? I never noticed any difference when traveling. Horizontal seemed the norm to me, everywhere (with exceptions for a narrow wall or something). Not so?

-ERD50

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator If you have an attic above that room, the junction box could have been in the attic, not the room. I have worked with many handymen that cover them up routinely. It is not code, and if a wire nut ever comes loose it is near impossible to diagnose the issue. A plug works the best, and even if it is a poor location, maybe better than a blank plate.

Nope, bedroom above... I will run the plug suggestion by the DW, but I bet it is a no since that would look stranger IMO.... we are talking a bit above eye level....

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Nope, bedroom above... I will run the plug suggestion by the DW, but I bet it is a no since that would look stranger IMO.... we are talking a bit above eye level....

Right where you would want to plug in a CO detector? Hmmm....

-ERD50

[meierlde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I asked... they said no, it cannot be covered up... Now, I am sure I could hire someone to do it, or do it myself in the future... we will see.....

It you ever watch Holmes on Homes you find he is on the warpath against hidden junction boxes it apparently is a severe violation of code, and a fire hazard to boot. (In particular consider the next person remodeling the house who does not know about the junction box)

[Senator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Nope, bedroom above... I will run the plug suggestion by the DW, but I bet it is a no since that would look stranger IMO.... we are talking a bit above eye level....

Or put a bunch of false blank plates on the wall and make a design...

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadshort52 I am an electrician and not an accountant but lets say the roles were reversed. Say that electrician has you doing some accounting work and he didn't like the way you had all of the line items laid out on his statement. Although this is the way its normally/always done he wants to see it done his way but he admits he knows NOTHING about accounting. He most certainly won't want to pay you for your extra efforts to re do it his way and you know that it won't make a hill of beans amount of difference in a million years and the end result will be absolutely the same. How would you handle such a ridiculous request? To ask if you are being too picky is a huge understatement. Regarding the junction box. I am sure if it really bothers you and you don't mind spending the extra money they will be glad to cut up the rest of your house and fish in a new wire to eliminate the box. Then of course you will have to deal with the expense and the mess of the patching of all of the holes it took to gain the access needed to add the additional wiring. Or you could just leave that calendar over it.

I have been looking online and so far every diagram or drawing that I can find shows that the wire coming into the box is coming in above the switch.... so saying that crossing the wires inside the box is what an electrician would normally do.... I just do not buy it... It sounds like an easy out to fix the problem they created in the first place...


BTW, my BIL was a contractor and I worked with him for awhile.... I saw many times where what he did want not 'correct' but 'good enough'.... I remember once when he was putting in some plumbing and did not have a long enough pipe... so he spliced a few together and that was that... sure, it worked, but was it the correct way to do it Not in my opinion....

[euro]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I have been looking online and so far every diagram or drawing that I can find shows that the wire coming into the box is coming in above the switch.... so saying that crossing the wires inside the box is what an electrician would normally do.... I just do not buy it... It sounds like an easy out to fix the problem they created in the first place... BTW, my BIL was a contractor and I worked with him for awhile.... I saw many times where what he did want not 'correct' but 'good enough'.... I remember once when he was putting in some plumbing and did not have a long enough pipe... so he spliced a few together and that was that... sure, it worked, but was it the correct way to do it Not in my opinion....

If I were you, I'd let it go - you'll sleep better at night.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by euro If I were you, I'd let it go - you'll sleep better at night.

I let it go... just responding to a post...

[427Vette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I have been looking online and so far every diagram or drawing that I can find shows that the wire coming into the box is coming in above the switch.... so saying that crossing the wires inside the box is what an electrician would normally do.... I just do not buy it... It sounds like an easy out to fix the problem they created in the first place... ..

Well, I guess if that's what you found online I stand corrected. I mean if it's online it must be the gold standard and the way we are all supposed to be doing things. Or maybe the illustrator was just trying to simplify the diagram for those who actually need to look online for a simple schematic such as this.

I can tell you that most electricians will give minimal thought to the locations of devices in a box during the rough in stage of a project. At that point our concerns are usually more directed toward other challenges. One of my many concerns at that point is to make my wiring look super neat, straight and in order. For this to happen I don't want wires crossing over the top of each other as I strap them going down the studs. It's much more accepted to terminate them into the box where they then can be routed to the proper location to terminate onto the corresponding device. It is much neater to have the wires cross each other inside the box then externally.

I am sure if you express your concerns, state how much this obviously means to you and most importantly tell the electrician that you understand that he needs to charge you for his time in redoing what is already completed and presumably inspected, they will gladly change it for you.

If you don't like the idea of wires crossing each other please don't ever remove the cover of your electric panel.

Regarding the junction box blank cover. It sounds like a good spot to put a combination CO/smoke detector. That way you can make it look like you meant to have it there.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I have been looking online and so far every diagram or drawing that I can find shows that the wire coming into the box is coming in above the switch.... so saying that crossing the wires inside the box is what an electrician would normally do.... I just do not buy it... It sounds like an easy out to fix the problem they created in the first place...

Let it go!

https://youtu.be/moSFlvxnbgk

And of course if someone is going to draw and publish a diagram then they will not cross incoming wires for the sake of clarity... but when an electritian is scrambling to rough in the wiring they are mostly just looking for the right wires to get to the right electrical boxes, knowing that if they cross it is no big deal.

You seem to be so bothered that the electircal wires will cross in the box which you'll never see unless you take off the switch plate.... I hate to tell you this but your wires also cross all over the place inside the walls and above the ceiling!

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadshort52 Well, I guess if that's what you found online I stand corrected. I mean if it's online it must be the gold standard and the way we are all supposed to be doing things. Or maybe the illustrator was just trying to simplify the diagram for those who actually need to look online for a simple schematic such as this. I can tell you that most electricians will give minimal thought to the locations of devices in a box during the rough in stage of a project. At that point our concerns are usually more directed toward other challenges. One of my many concerns at that point is to make my wiring look super neat, straight and in order. For this to happen I don't want wires crossing over the top of each other as I strap them going down the studs. It's much more accepted to terminate them into the box where they then can be routed to the proper location to terminate onto the corresponding device. It is much neater to have the wires cross each other inside the box then externally. I am sure if you express your concerns, state how much this obviously means to you and most importantly tell the electrician that you understand that he needs to charge you for his time in redoing what is already completed and presumably inspected, they will gladly change it for you. If you don't like the idea of wires crossing each other please don't ever remove the cover of your electric panel. Regarding the junction box blank cover. It sounds like a good spot to put a combination CO/smoke detector. That way you can make it look like you meant to have it there.

Absolutely - and there's a back up for my suggestion for a CO detector in place of that blank plate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud ... It sounds like an easy out to fix the problem they created in the first place...

Texas Proud, you just need to get it out of your head that this is a 'problem' that needs to be 'fixed'. You've been told by people with a background/experience in electrical installations, and an actual PRO. It is not a problem in any way, and therefore it doesn't need to be 'fixed'.

And if you want to take a picture to put on line as an example of how to wire something, it's normal to keep the wires uncrossed, just to make it easier to see what is going on. But that doesn't make crossed wires a 'problem'.

Not that it matters, but given the choice, I'd prefer (slightly) to have the crossing of wires where it is visible when I remove the switch plate, rather than buried in the wall where I can't see it. I think your idea of a 'fix' just makes it (slightly) worse!

I sure hope any lamp cords in your home that are behind a couch or something, don't cross over each other, but go in a straight line from lamp to outlet, with neat bends where needed. But to cross them! Oh the horror! Really!?

-ERD50

[Hermit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound I believe Hermit was talking about this kind of EMT elbow. I always use this when making external circuit run because it turns tighter corner than the following elbow. With either one, you are not going to replace any wire or pull new ones through the conduit after the circuit is installed. It is hard enough with all the pieces loose on the ground. And usually, you do not use EMT inside drywall, but if one wants to, why not?

The only place I am using conduit is from the generator inlet to the service panel. The inlet box on the outside of the house is too small to use standard 6 gauge 50 amp nomex, but I can use 8 gauge THHN single wires that fit the inlet box but must be in conduit. To get those wires bent from the wall run to the inlet box on the outside wall, I will put in an electrical box with a cover plate. This was the suggestion my inspector gave me so it is the right solution here. The cover plate will be in the garage so no big deal to me.

[calmloki]

[OldShooter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by calmloki Wiring to soothe the soul.

Wow! Very pretty. It would be interesting to know how many extra hours that cost and who paid! I would love to have a box like that but not to pay for it.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldShooter Wow! Very pretty. It would be interesting to know how many extra hours that cost and who paid! I would love to have a box like that but not to pay for it.

It should have a viewing panel (tempered glass maybe, I bet plexi would be against some code somewhere, must be flameproof?).

Though I'm not sure that's so extraordinary - I haven't seen many panels popped open, but from what I recall, the wires were routed at neat right angles like that. It's really not a big deal and makes putting it all together a little less confusing.

OK, mine would take 6 screws to get to, so I did a google image search on "electrical panel wiring", and they mostly look about that neat.

-ERD50

[NW-Bound]

The electricians who wired my homes did not spend the time to make the wiring inside the box as neat and straight as that. And they certainly did not use zip ties to group wires together. Oh well!

But talking about safety vs. aesthetic, this thread made me wonder about the reliability of the connections. In searching youtube, I found the following video, where a guy tested different types of connectors, some not commonly used in the US. They all perform surprisingly well up until the wire itself nearly melted. Of course, one has to wonder what happens a few years down the road after corrosion has set in.

FYI, the wire that this guy nearly melted by pushing 70A through has a cross section of 1.5 square mm. That's a tad larger than AWG 16, which has a cross section of 1.3 mm^2.

Now, the above wire has a resistance of around 3.5 milliohm/ft, and under a current of 70A will dissipate about 17 W/ft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uYD8e7idnY

[OldShooter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound The electricians who wired my homes did not spend the time to make the wiring inside the box as neat and straight as that. And they certainly did not use zip ties to group wires together. Oh well!

I have worked in maybe a half-dozen panels as an unlicensed (but MSEE) electrician. IMO dressing the wires that tight makes for an impressive looking panel but makes it difficult when changes are needed because all the wires are exactly to length. When I do similar things, I always make a loop in the wire just ahead of where it enters the breaker. That adds 3+ inches of wire, which can be useful if the wire needs to be moved and gives a little extra to work with if I have to add to it with another piece and a wire nut. The panel in the picture would be a nightmare, too, if one of the breakers had to be converted to a GFI. There would be a huge hunt to find and isolate the neutral that matches that hot. Twenty or thirty cut cable ties on the floor! So while I can admire the craftsmanship, IMO it is not a wise thing to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound But talking about safety vs. aesthetic, this thread made me wonder about the reliability of the connections.

Except in the poster-child case of aluminum wiring, UL (in the US) has done a pretty good job of making sure connectors are reliable. I'm never totally comfortable with the push-in wire option on things like duplex outlets but I have never had one fail. Re corrosion, I think UL tries to make sure that approved devices make "gas tight" connections where the physical pressure at the wire and connector metal/metal interface prevents oxygen or anything else from messing up the connection. Of course corrosion can still crawl in from the edges but that is why hostile environments have their own requirements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound In searching youtube, I found the following video, where a guy tested different types of connectors, some not commonly used in the US. ... FYI, the wire that this guy nearly melted by pushing 70A through has a cross section of 1.5 square mm. That's a tad larger than AWG 16 ...

Fun to watch, like the cat videos, but all he proves is that it is not a good idea to push huge currents through small wires. US spec is 14 gauge for 15a breakers, 12 AWG for 20 amp. The real world is different of course because we don't have wires just hanging in free air. They will be in cables, like NM, in metal like conduit or Greenfield, etc. so will heat faster than his demo wire heated. But his video is an entertaining way to prove nothing. Thanks for posting.

[Texas Proud]

WOW... a lot of posts...


To be clear... I have let it go a LONG time ago.... everything since my first post saying I let it go was to learn.... not to worry about anything...

So thanks for the suggestions to let it be... I have...

And even though deadshort52 might think I was saying something against him, I was not... just that the diagrams, videos etc. that I saw all showed what I had thought should happen...

When they put in the new line to my fuse box, the wires look nice and neat... not as good as the pic in the earlier post, but pretty nice.... the new wire is just thrown in there and connected to the breaker... it will work... and it will probably never have a problem.... just that some people seem to take a bit more pride in how their work looks than does it function or not...