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Old 03-19-2008, 03:32 AM   #141
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I don't follow you. Isn't 'as quick as possibly' the same as 'cut and run'?

If not, what constraints are you putting on 'as quick as possibly', and what are each candidate's position on that?

-ERD50
I do not think so. Put it like this. DO you want to be in Iraq as long as we have been in Korea?

Not me. Matter of fact, I do not want to be in Iraq as long as we were in Viet Nam. I do not want to be there at all... but we are there.

As quickly as possible, I would like our Government and Military to get the Iraqi Army sufficient enough to defend themselves and get out.

Some are projecting that we will be in Iraq up to 2020 or longer.

Do you want to be in that country for 20 years?
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:34 AM   #142
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Not me. I was just pondering if there was a common thread to their lack of energy program improvements.
You are right we did get off subject.

I make a comment that GWB did not have an aggressive enough stance on energy independence and off it went.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:29 AM   #143
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You are right we did get off subject.

I make a comment that GWB did not have an aggressive enough stance on energy independence and off it went.
chinaco, the point that some of us are trying to make is that you singled out GWB in that statement. As youbet has asked, if the GWB admin has dragged it's feet because of connections with 'Big Oil', what was it that caused Clinton/Gore to not take an aggressive enough stance on energy independence?

It's not about defending GWB at all. I don't think anyone posting is satisfied with the Bush energy policy. It's about understanding what, if any, difference there was in other admin's energy policy, and why.

I'm not sure why that would be considered 'off subject' in a thread titled ' 'New energy policy for America.''? Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it?

-ERD50
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:36 AM   #144
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I do not think so. Put it like this. DO you want to be in Iraq as long as we have been in Korea?

Not me. Matter of fact, I do not want to be in Iraq as long as we were in Viet Nam. I do not want to be there at all... but we are there.

As quickly as possible, I would like our Government and Military to get the Iraqi Army sufficient enough to defend themselves and get out.

Some are projecting that we will be in Iraq up to 2020 or longer.

Do you want to be in that country for 20 years?
'to get the Iraqi Army sufficient enough to defend themselves and get out.' I'm no military or political expert, but that sounds reasonable to me.

As far as our presence in Korea, for example, I really don't know. Is that a good or bad thing? Maybe a presence in the middle east is based on a similar approach? We've been in Korea far longer than 20 years. 20 years, or any number does not bother me as much as not knowing if there is a cogent plan to it all. There may be a reasonable plan, I'm not too confident that there is.

-ERD50
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:51 AM   #145
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'to get the Iraqi Army sufficient enough to defend themselves and get out.' I'm no military or political expert, but that sounds reasonable to me.

As far as our presence in Korea, for example, I really don't know. Is that a good or bad thing? Maybe a presence in the middle east is based on a similar approach? We've been in Korea far longer than 20 years. 20 years, or any number does not bother me as much as not knowing if there is a cogent plan to it all. There may be a reasonable plan, I'm not too confident that there is.

-ERD50
Which Iraqi Army and who do they defend? The difference between Iraq and Korea is that there are three different factions fighting for power. These three groups hate each other and probably never will get along and play nice together.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:18 PM   #146
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Watch this video about a plan to get off oil hile making a profit doing so.

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/51


You can download a free PDF copy of the book (study commissioned by the Pentegon) that shows the supporting documentation from this link. You just need to register on the site to download.

http://oilendgame.com
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:07 AM   #147
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Watch this video about a plan to get off oil hile making a profit doing so.

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/51


You can download a free PDF copy of the book (study commissioned by the Pentegon) that shows the supporting documentation from this link. You just need to register on the site to download.

http://oilendgame.com

Excellent. Thanks Joesxm.


Recommend everyone watch it! Seems reasonable to me... give me a big glass of the Kool-aide.
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:06 AM   #148
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Excellent. Thanks Joesxm.


Recommend everyone watch it! Seems reasonable to me... give me a big glass of the Kool-aide.
Well, I think Lovin's message is good in general, but I do think you need a giant glass of Kool-Aid with it.

Lovin and the Rocky Mountain Institute have been big names in the environmental movement for a long time. I read a fairly in-depth interview with him a few years ago. It all sounded soooo good, but it was really weak on numbers. So I went to his web site, and I couldn't find much in the way of hard numbers there either.

I mean, if he claims he can keep his Colorado offices comfortably heated, and grow banana plants there with almost no outside energy - where are the numbers to say this is cost effective? I couldn't find them. Just look at Nord's solar install - with so many factors in his favor (subsidies, high local electric rates, good location for solar, scrounging used panels, sweat equity, etc), there is still a pretty long payback period.

Lovin makes good points, I just don't think it's as easy as he makes it out to be. And if it was, greedy old capitalists would be making it happen. I mean, that *was* his point about the capitalists saving the whales in the early 1900's. They ran out of customers before they ran out of whales, because petroleum was cheaper. So the greedy capatilists started chasing petroleum rather than chase whales. Did it take a long time for them to figure that out? Not really. So, if more energy efficient processes were truly that easily implemented, and provided so much benefit, I think businesses would be doing more of it. Some are, (Walmart and Google have programs), but I just don't think it is the slam-dunk that Lovin's makes it out to be.

I do 100% agree with this info from the slide:

Quote:
Four basic market failures
! Oil is priced below its societal cost
! Most customers are very short-sighted
! Most customers have poor information
! Most managers resist disruptive innovations
Policy portfolio must turn these obstacles into
business opportunities and accelerate adoption
of advanced-technology vehicles
The number #1 thing govt could do is stop subsidizing fossil fuel, then start taxing it to help pay for environmental impacts, then get out of the way and let greedy capitalists address the issue with alternate clean sources.

-ERD50
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:06 PM   #149
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Well, I think Lovin's message is good in general, but I do think you need a giant glass of Kool-Aid with it.

Lovin and the Rocky Mountain Institute have been big names in the environmental movement for a long time. I read a fairly in-depth interview with him a few years ago. It all sounded soooo good, but it was really weak on numbers. So I went to his web site, and I couldn't find much in the way of hard numbers there either.

I mean, if he claims he can keep his Colorado offices comfortably heated, and grow banana plants there with almost no outside energy - where are the numbers to say this is cost effective? I couldn't find them. Just look at Nord's solar install - with so many factors in his favor (subsidies, high local electric rates, good location for solar, scrounging used panels, sweat equity, etc), there is still a pretty long payback period.

Lovin makes good points, I just don't think it's as easy as he makes it out to be. And if it was, greedy old capitalists would be making it happen. I mean, that *was* his point about the capitalists saving the whales in the early 1900's. They ran out of customers before they ran out of whales, because petroleum was cheaper. So the greedy capatilists started chasing petroleum rather than chase whales. Did it take a long time for them to figure that out? Not really. So, if more energy efficient processes were truly that easily implemented, and provided so much benefit, I think businesses would be doing more of it. Some are, (Walmart and Google have programs), but I just don't think it is the slam-dunk that Lovin's makes it out to be.

I do 100% agree with this info from the slide:

The number #1 thing govt could do is stop subsidizing fossil fuel, then start taxing it to help pay for environmental impacts, then get out of the way and let greedy capitalists address the issue with alternate clean sources.

-ERD50
I watched the video (nice web site, I plan to go back and watch others), and was going to respond. Then I got interrupted. While I was away, ERD50 wrote my post for me.

Lovins has been preaching this gospel for a long time. I think the technology and, especially, the price of oil are finally moving enough so his vision may work even if his numbers are off by a factor of 3 or 4.

For example, I don't think that new, lighter materials for cars will be as cheap as Lovins claims. If automakers use these materials, cars will get more expensive. But if oil stays at $100 a barrel, we might buy them anyway.

Like ERD, I've been in favor of eliminating the subsidies on oil (which include the free use of the US military) and letting the profit seekers solve the problem.

Maybe all the gov't really needs to do today is pass a standby tax that will keep the price of traditional crude from dropping below $100 a barrel. If the market is certain the price won't drop below that level, then people can make investments with some degree of confidence.
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:32 PM   #150
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No one has mentioned geothermal for electric power generation. DH and I were in Mexico and learned that they have a geothermal plant that serves part of the US.

It seems to me that geothermal is the ultimate renewable energy source, not dependent on sunlight or wind.
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:49 PM   #151
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Re: Geothermal. There was a cover story a month ago in Popular Science (or somesuch) on the potential for geothermal power in the US. There are a few locations where it makes sense and is becoming commercially viable. It's nice because it's available 24/7, so makes for a good source fr baseline demand. There are, however, large portions of the US where no hot spots are close enough to the surface.

OTOH, using the steady-state temps of the earth underneath homes/businesses, etc as a source for earth-coupled heatpumps is an idea that is very practical in most of the US. It's especially attractive if you live in a cold climate and don't have access to natural gas for heating.

In the more distant future when costs come down for direct conversion of heat energy to electricity (via reverse Peltier solid-state devices, etc) I imagine it might even be possible to generate energy from the difference in temp between underground earth temps everywhere and the surface temperature. That will be a long way off, as this low-grade heat difference (30-50 deg F) is just not practical to exploit with present technology (and might never be).
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:51 PM   #152
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No one has mentioned geothermal for electric power generation. DH and I were in Mexico and learned that they have a geothermal plant that serves part of the US.

It seems to me that geothermal is the ultimate renewable energy source, not dependent on sunlight or wind.
The biggest limitations of using geothermal to generate electricity is related to geography and geology – there are relatively few places on earth that have magma close enough to the earth’s crust to create the conditions necessary for generating electricity in an economical way.
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Old 03-23-2008, 04:38 PM   #153
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For those of us who live near the Cascade or Sierra Mountian ranges proximity to geothermal features isn't an issue.
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Old 03-24-2008, 09:38 AM   #154
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For those of us who live near the Cascade or Sierra Mountian ranges proximity to geothermal features isn't an issue.
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:47 AM   #155
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Were I a member of the Warm Springs Tribe I would be exploring the option of a geothermal power generation facility.
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Old 03-25-2008, 07:07 PM   #156
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The Big Island of Hawaii has had a geothermal plant operating for 25 years. Unfortunately, like some many alterantive energy options it isn't very cost effective, despite being located on an active volcano.
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Old 03-26-2008, 01:09 AM   #157
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No one has mentioned geothermal for electric power generation. DH and I were in Mexico and learned that they have a geothermal plant that serves part of the US.

It seems to me that geothermal is the ultimate renewable energy source, not dependent on sunlight or wind.
It is my understanding based upon some geothermal work I did in the 1980's that geothermal is NOT renewable. Once the heated rock area is cooled the reheat times are in the centuries. (not to be construed as opposition to geothermal as a good interim idea)
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:40 AM   #158
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The Big Island of Hawaii has had a geothermal plant operating for 25 years. Unfortunately, like some many alterantive energy options it isn't very cost effective, despite being located on an active volcano.
Man, if they can't produce geothermal energy cost effectively in Hawaii, it does have some major drawbacks.
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:48 AM   #159
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What enegry policy?

Maybe what the new president should do come Jan 2009 is appoint the GREAT Willlie Nelson to the post of Energy Secretary and appoint Woody Harrison the Under Secretary for Energy. Then maybe HEMP can be used as an alternate source for enegry.

If nothing else at least the Dept of Energy will be ordering a lot of take out and they will save the Government $$$$ by eating their meals at their desks.

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Old 03-26-2008, 11:32 AM   #160
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Build 3 Nuclear Power plants per state. It would revive the economy, it would put the arabs in Opec on notice that we here in the states will have as much electric power as we need. Let the Chinese buy the stinkin oil!

Heck the arabs were sided with the Nazis durig WWII

the country and people that helped americans the SERBS have been given the shaft by the americans now, and china gets most favored trade status, they are awful when it comes to human rights.
i don't think rhode island needs 3...
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