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Old 08-12-2014, 06:45 AM   #81
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It is a fact that keys are simpler. Give 100 drivers the key for different mainstream model cars that still use keys, and they will all know how to use the basic functions. Give 100 drivers fobs for different mainstream model cars that use fobs, and they will be less likely to all know how to use the basic functions (like put it in accessory mode). Because fobs are more complex, and their operation is not always physically apparent.
You are not talking about "simplicity," but rather "intuitiveness." We could argue whether or not keys really are more intuitive, or whether you were simply taught how to use them so long ago that you've forgotten a time when they were confusing too, but "simpler" is more clear-cut, in my opinion. The fact is that being able to start, stop, lock, unlock, and use other features of the car by simply having the fob on your person is exceedingly simpler than having to fish out the right key (remember when GM cars always had 2 keys - a round one and a square one?), find the hole, put the key in the right way, and turn it.

5 minutes of instruction or reading the manual overcomes the "intuitiveness" hump. After that, there is little room to argue that fobs are not "simpler" than keys.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:15 AM   #82
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remember when GM cars always had 2 keys - a round one and a square one?
And they had an up and down direction too.

My third car (a Datsun B210!) not only had a single key for ignition and door, but also there was no up or down. Loved that.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:08 AM   #83
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I wonder why they don't put the start button on the floor, above gas pedal, where it belongs.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:24 AM   #84
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I wonder why they don't put the start button on the floor, above gas pedal, where it belongs.
I'm sorry they still don't have a place to put a crank, in case the battery goes flat.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:57 AM   #85
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It takes longer to teach people how to use a crank and not break their thumb, than to teach them how to push a button.

I am not a fan of fobs.

How about a fingerprint reader, and a start button?
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:15 AM   #86
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To those posters who think they are being funny by painting some of us as Luddites that want to go back to 'the old ways', you either have serious reading comprehension issues, or logical thinking issues or both. And if you think it is actually funny, well, hopefully you can do better than that.

I never said there were not advantages and conveniences to fobs. I merely said there were two negatives: cost/convenience of carrying a spare, and not enough standardization of operation. People can disagree on the relative importance of those issues, but they can't be denied. I'll repeat here for clarity:

Quote:
Two points that I'm making:

1) These large fobs make it impractical and relatively expensive to carry a spare in a wallet. Now you can minimize that all you want, and these fobs may protect against some of this to some degree. But it is a negative, no way around that.

2) These things are complex enough and there are so many different scenarios (user cases) and there may not be enough standardization to keep people from having 'ooooops' moments - which could be very inconvenient and expensive. Especially in multi-car families.
I'm a HUGE fan of new technology, and adopt it aggressively. But new tech should ALWAYS consider EVERYTHING the old tech did, and ideally, improve in EVERY way. Sometimes there are unavoidable compromises just due to the nature of the new tech, and it is maybe 10 steps forward, one step to the side or backwards. And if the pros outweigh the cons, the new tech is generally adopted by the public. But that does not change the fact that is was lacking in that one way, and we should strive to improve that, not ignore it.

All I'm saying is I'd like to see this new tech address the standardization and cheap/convenient spare issues. Is that so wrong? Is it worthy of ridicule?

Maybe a micro-SD card with an encrypted code would be a solution to the cheap/convenient spare issue? That's a high tech solution that is cheap and convenient - probably cheaper and more convenient than carrying an old fashioned metal key. I'd be all for something like that. New wallets could even have a little micro-SD card pocket built into them. Or maybe when everything our wallet carries goes digital, it's just another code in a device, and we don't even need a physical 'fob' - it's just some code on a generic device.

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Old 08-12-2014, 11:19 AM   #87
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...

My third car (a Datsun B210!) not only had a single key for ignition and door, but also there was no up or down. Loved that.
Yes! What took them so long to move to a single non-directional key! That was a nice improvement with the available tech at the time, with NO downside.

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Old 08-12-2014, 11:51 AM   #88
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My third car (a Datsun B210!) not only had a single key for ignition and door, but also there was no up or down. Loved that.
The way I remembered for GM cars was to note that the "shapes" were opposite. That is, if the thing you were putting the key in was square (trunk, door, glove box), then use the round key. If it was round (steering wheel), use the square key.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:44 PM   #89
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Maybe a micro-SD card with an encrypted code would be a solution to the cheap/convenient spare issue?
With MBrace (and the other telematics systems like onStar I assume) you can already have them unlock your car for you. There's a smart phone app that does this or you can call them (you need to them then your PIN #).

I'm not aware of any that support actually starting your car for you, but it certainly could be done.

Personally, I'd like to take the next step which is to use my iPhone as my key. Basically, the phone would be the fob (it already does part of this job with their app allowing unlock, unlock, panic alarm). It should use Bluetooth LE for proximity.

There are already house door locks that do this (your iPhone is your key). They offer nice features like sending virtual extra keys to people so your house keeper can enter on tuesday between 2 and 4 PM or your house guests can enter for the next two days, for example. A car app could do this too - and I expect they will fairly soon.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:59 PM   #90
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With MBrace (and the other telematics systems like onStar I assume) you can already have them unlock your car for you. There's a smart phone app that does this or you can call them (you need to them then your PIN #).
Yes, but I think they rely on a cell signal, which might be a problem in a parking garage, or even out in the sticks (DD had a job in a small town in central IL - Verizon was the only carrier, she had to switch from T-Mobile).



Quote:
Personally, I'd like to take the next step which is to use my iPhone as my key. Basically, the phone would be the fob (it already does part of this job with their app allowing unlock, unlock, panic alarm). It should use Bluetooth LE for proximity.
Something like that. Though I think a more universal module type approach will be what we get - some very low power device that isn't dependent on your cell phone battery, though it could be built into a cell phone. [edit - i missed the "LE" after Bluetooth - yes, that could probably work very well for this, and be powered by a separate cell/capacitor in a phone]

Quote:
There are already house door locks that do this (your iPhone is your key). They offer nice features like sending virtual extra keys to people so your house keeper can enter on tuesday between 2 and 4 PM or your house guests can enter for the next two days, for example. A car app could do this too - and I expect they will fairly soon.
Conceptually, yes. But those depend on wi-fi I think.

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