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Old 07-24-2018, 07:30 PM   #21
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I was told that Trane and American Standard were both built in Tyler Texas . Another one . I have a ductless mini split 2 ton / Heat pump Trane . All of the guys East of me here in Richards like a clock quoted 4800.00 . I went to Navasota to a company called Gessner and got a Trane for 3200.00
Now my system is an inverter system , I think all systems are inverter type . The old style A/c always came on full blast . This one just comes on for what is needed.
Trane is a 10 yr warranty .
Don't know about where you live but it is true have the system sized , the old systems people would get the biggest they could afford , yes it would cool the house but it would never get the humidity out . This caused mold.


Shop , Shop, Shop I think A/C is a racket but what you going to do ...you need it . Tell them you need a senior citizen discount !
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Old 07-24-2018, 07:53 PM   #22
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I have a 1996 model Trane heat pump in my lake house. The A coil (evaporator) has a small leak and must be replaced. My HVAC guy says older Trane parts are double in cost of generic parts and they are hard to find.

I cringe at the cost of an A coil on such an old unit, but the heat pump has very few hours usage since it is a very part time house.

Next repair, I am scrapping the heat pump and putting in two mini split systems.

But in the case of the DFW furnace: If you have natural gas, use it. Go back with a high efficiency furnace and a/c system. Natural gas feels so much warmer in winter, and it is very efficient.

FYI: Do you know that there are now very few independent HVAC companies in major cities? They have been purchased by the furnace manufacturers and competition has been almost eliminated. I can price HVAC components online, and installed prices indicate very high profit margins are the norm.

I have an independent heating guy that gives me incredible service for a fair price. Even he has switched to minisplits at home.
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Old 07-24-2018, 08:15 PM   #23
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Just checked...


Our 5 ton Trane XV18 with variable heater and a 2 zone system (upstairs and downstairs) had a total cost of $13700.... rebates of $500 and $1740 plus tax put it a smidge under $11K....


If you have a 2 story I would recommend a zoned system via dampers unless you want to spend money for two separate units (I did not)... it has made a world of difference... before the temp difference could get as high as 7 degrees... now I can have them the exact same all day long...


With variable you have to be ready for it to run a lot... with the heat I am seeing sometimes 75% use for the day... and the higher rating is at least half that time...


But I love the steady comfort that it provides... my only complaint is that when DW comes in from outside heat and them complains how hot it is... ... really? it might take 20 minutes to cool down but it is NOT hot in the house...
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Old 07-24-2018, 08:32 PM   #24
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If you have a 2 story I would recommend a zoned system via dampers unless you want to spend money for two separate units (I did not)... it has made a world of difference... before the temp difference could get as high as 7 degrees... now I can have them the exact same all day long...
We have a one story. There is one unit and it is not zoned. That seems adequate for the size of the house. Need to check with DH though on the size of the unit for the Trane quote.
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:09 AM   #25
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We have a one story. There is one unit and it is not zoned. That seems adequate for the size of the house. Need to check with DH though on the size of the unit for the Trane quote.

You can still zone a one story if you want... say there is a hot side and a cold side of the house and the ducts are set up that the house can be split... we are talking dampers and a sensor, not two units.. heck, I know that our system can do at least 3 zones as I see that on the thermostat...



Yes, if you are going with a normal single speed then the size makes a huge difference...


My BIL decided to add an additional ton of AC about 20 years ago when he had the AC changed... it was recently that my sister had it changed out again... she went back down that ton...


She told me that she had big problems with mold and moisture... the AC was too big for her house and would not get rid of the humidity and it caused all kinds of trouble...


Not as big of a problem with 2 stage or variable...
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:57 AM   #26
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You can still zone a one story if you want... say there is a hot side and a cold side of the house and the ducts are set up that the house can be split... we are talking dampers and a sensor, not two units.. heck, I know that our system can do at least 3 zones as I see that on the thermostat...
Oh, I understand. We had that at our old house. We had 3 but only one unit. Just that in this house it doesn't seem necessary.
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Old 07-25-2018, 07:16 AM   #27
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*** The one I am interested in is the XR 16 which is a single stage, 17 SEER unit at $8830.72. He did not quote any two stage units. The other two he quoted were the XR 14 and XR 15 (16 SEER - $8402.32). *** I'm in eastern Pa and 2 neighbors had Trane XR13's installed in 2012 (inside and outside) for about $5,000 each. Maybe they've got a little cartel going out there in Texas?
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Old 07-25-2018, 07:34 AM   #28
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I have a 1996 model Trane heat pump in my lake house. The A coil (evaporator) has a small leak and must be replaced. My HVAC guy says older Trane parts are double in cost of generic parts and they are hard to find.
He's not telling you that you must use a Trane evap coil, is he? Any evap coil that is the right physical size, BTU, and is fitted with the right TXV will work fine.
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Old 07-25-2018, 08:06 AM   #29
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He's not telling you that you must use a Trane evap coil, is he? Any evap coil that is the right physical size, BTU, and is fitted with the right TXV will work fine.
The Trane A coil is taller than generic parts. No see no reason not to use whatever will fit.

It has been mentioned that prices group together on HVAC. That is a lack of competition and the fact that so many larger a/c companies are owned by manufacturers. Even the independents know what the other guys are charging and have fallen in line on pricing--often unreasonable prices.
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Old 07-25-2018, 08:35 AM   #30
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The Trane A coil is taller than generic parts. No see no reason not to use whatever will fit.
If I were in your boots, I'd research this myself (maybe you have). I seriously doubt Trane makes their own A-style evap coils and that no one else makes one that will fit, but that's what I might say if I were an HVAC installer who had a special relationship with Trane.

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It has been mentioned that prices group together on HVAC. That is a lack of competition and the fact that so many larger a/c companies are owned by manufacturers. Even the independents know what the other guys are charging and have fallen in line on pricing--often unreasonable prices.
There's definitely something going on. This HVAC equipment is now available direct to consumers, and the pricing is transparent. When I see what people are being charged (and the quotes I got from large HVAC companies in my area), the installation charges worked out to over $500 per manhour. So, something is definitely going on. Several installers have told me that the retail price Ia m paying for the equipment is slightly lower than they can get from their suppliers, so some of the costs are apparently due to the distribution channels being used. But I think the majority of the cost difference is in the installation.

I have saved a lot of money by doing much of the work myself. That means researching/choosing the right size and type of equipment, buying it, moving it into position and doing the duct connections, doing the electrical prep, getting the gas line and flex connector ready for hookup, running the new lineset into position, etc. They HVAC tech comes to do what he does best, and charges me for his expertise and time. But only the small HVAC companies are willing to do this.

The bigger retail outfits want to run customers through their process: The "comfort consultant" comes out to sell you the most expensive thing they can--while not knowing enough to actually evaluate something like a duct system, then the installer comes out with a semi-skilled assistant to do the installation as rapidly as possible, trying to make everything work within the scope of what the salesman spec'ed out, despite the realities and surprises they encounter during the job.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:15 AM   #31
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If I were in your boots, I'd research this myself (maybe you have). I seriously doubt Trane makes their own A-style evap coils and that no one else makes one that will fit, but that's what I might say if I were an HVAC installer who had a special relationship with Trane.


There's definitely something going on. This HVAC equipment is now available direct to consumers, and the pricing is transparent. When I see what people are being charged (and the quotes I got from large HVAC companies in my area), the installation charges worked out to over $500 per manhour. So, something is definitely going on. Several installers have told me that the retail price Ia m paying for the equipment is slightly lower than they can get from their suppliers, so some of the costs are apparently due to the distribution channels being used. But I think the majority of the cost difference is in the installation.

I have saved a lot of money by doing much of the work myself. That means researching/choosing the right size and type of equipment, buying it, moving it into position and doing the duct connections, doing the electrical prep, getting the gas line and flex connector ready for hookup, running the new lineset into position, etc. They HVAC tech comes to do what he does best, and charges me for his expertise and time. But only the small HVAC companies are willing to do this.

The bigger retail outfits want to run customers through their process: The "comfort consultant" comes out to sell you the most expensive thing they can--while not knowing enough to actually evaluate something like a duct system, then the installer comes out with a semi-skilled assistant to do the installation as rapidly as possible, trying to make everything work within the scope of what the salesman spec'ed out, despite the realities and surprises they encounter during the job.
+1 I do my own, and typically buy from Ingrams Water and Air. My last 5 ton 14 SEER HP upgrade with new A-coil and TXV cost me $2200 delivered. I had fun getting installed quotes up to 10K for this job. It was in one of my commercial properties.
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:09 AM   #32
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*** The one I am interested in is the XR 16 which is a single stage, 17 SEER unit at $8830.72. He did not quote any two stage units. The other two he quoted were the XR 14 and XR 15 (16 SEER - $8402.32). *** I'm in eastern Pa and 2 neighbors had Trane XR13's installed in 2012 (inside and outside) for about $5,000 each. Maybe they've got a little cartel going out there in Texas?
I am in eastern PA and have a 2016 estimate for Trane that I have not acted on yet. Want to get a few more this year. 1600 sq ft house.

XL 16i 8750. XL 18i 9370. XV 20i 13,650
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Old 07-25-2018, 01:16 PM   #33
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Here is what you have to remember , it is easy to cool your house . But a correct A/C unit will dehumidify and make the house much more liveable .
A to big unit will kick on run shortly cool the house but never remove the humidity.


A friend of mine has an A/C company in Pearland Texas . He brags because he has 109 techs . I tried him on my installed unit . He was double the price. Told me the other guys were chop shops
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:51 PM   #34
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*** The one I am interested in is the XR 16 which is a single stage, 17 SEER unit at $8830.72. He did not quote any two stage units. The other two he quoted were the XR 14 and XR 15 (16 SEER - $8402.32). *** I'm in eastern Pa and 2 neighbors had Trane XR13's installed in 2012 (inside and outside) for about $5,000 each. Maybe they've got a little cartel going out there in Texas?
Were they heat pumps or conventional AC. Conventional AC (with gas furnace) was a little less. The quotes I gave above were for the Heat pump systems. Conventional XR 14 was $7549.57 and XR 14 SW model (16 SEER) was $7980.42. So the 16 Seer Heat Pump was about $500 more.


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I am in eastern PA and have a 2016 estimate for Trane that I have not acted on yet. Want to get a few more this year. 1600 sq ft house.

XL 16i 8750. XL 18i 9370. XV 20i 13,650
I am guessing that since you are in PA that is for a conventional system and not a heat pump?
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:35 AM   #35
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I am in eastern PA and have a 2016 estimate for Trane that I have not acted on yet. Want to get a few more this year. 1600 sq ft house.

XL 16i 8750. XL 18i 9370. XV 20i 13,650
Holy Cow. Was $8,750 the lowest price available?
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:42 AM   #36
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[QUOTE=Katsmeow;2084029]Were they heat pumps or conventional AC. Conventional AC (with gas furnace) was a little less. The quotes I gave above were for the Heat pump systems. Conventional XR 14 was $7549.57 and XR 14 SW model (16 SEER) was $7980.42. So the 16 Seer Heat Pump was about $500 more.




The $5,000 was for heat pumps (same equipment provides heat in winter and coolth in summer). I'm stunned (or maybe not) that a 'basic' heat pump has gone up from $5,000 to $8,000 in just 6 years.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:45 PM   #37
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........

I would actually prefer to not have gas at all. I have 3 things that use gas:

1. Gas furnace

2. Gas water heater

3. Pool/spa heater

So, get rid of gas furnace and that just leaves gas water heater and pool/spa heater. We need to get a new water heater soon so I think I will get an electric hybrid.

That leaves only the pool/spa heater which is the problem. I hate to have to pay the gas connection fee just for the pool/spa (gas service here is over $30 a month even if you don't actually use any significant amount of gas).

We probably won't ever heat up the whole pool (we've had pools before and never did). But we will regularly heat up the spa (which is part of the pool). The pool guy recommended against a heat pump heater for the pool/spa since he says it will take too long to heat up the spa and will have difficulty in the winter.

But, I hate to have to pay for gas just to heat up the spa. I guess I could get a conventional electric heater? But know that is expensive. But, if I had no gas I could cancel the gas service entirely....
Seriously? Living in the Metroplex, give up on gas, and go all-electric instead?

Part of my daily morning walk is through an area that does not have gas. During late fall/winter/early spring, the heat pumps are all cranking away there. A friend over there would like to get gas, but has checked with the gas company, for them to extend a main is big $$, and everyone would have to ante up $ in advance. He talked with his neighbors, it's not going to happen. He misses having gas.

A gas furnace with A/C added is lower initial cost, simpler to maintain, and has a lower running cost. In my whole life, I have known only ONE person who lived in a gas area, and changed to all-electric. She had an unreasonable fear of gas. Not borne by any experiences, but by, um, what would one call it... mental state?

It takes an incredible amount of electricity to create large amounts of heat, which you would need for an in-ground pool's spa heater.

Since I do everything myself, and have for many decades, no way would I go with any sort of "hybrid" electric water heater. They are basically another A/C system, and very specialized, that removes heat from one place and transfers it to the water. Thereby cooling the area where the water heater is located. That area needs to stay hot enough, or else the transfer efficiency drops, like the COP of heat pumps. To say nothing of the initial cost and complexity, which you throw out when the tank ages out, to start all over again. Chemical fuels (like natural gas) are GREAT for heating!
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Old 07-26-2018, 11:42 PM   #38
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Seriously? Living in the Metroplex, give up on gas, and go all-electric instead?
Oh, well, we all like different things. Actually several people have told me that heat pumps are very, very, very common in this area for new systems. One of the people who gave us a quote (who actually is not that sold on heat pumps) said that some companies in the area sell nothing else. My research indicates that this is a great area for a heat pump being overall less expensive in the long run when all costs are considered.

As far as the hybrid water heater is concerned I actually had one at a past house. I liked it.

As far as the pool, that is a more difficult question. I haven't decided what I will do yet. I've had pools at two prior houses and and basically never used the pool heater for heating the entire pool. If it was cold enough that the pool wasn't warm enough to swim in I just didn't swim in it. The pool heater was used solely to heat the spa. I recognized heating with electric heat is more expensive for a spa. The thing I am not sure is how much more expensive.

Bear in mind that you pay over $30 a month for the gas connection even if you aren't using any gas at all. So that has to be factored in when considering that that is an expense I wouldn't have if I had no gas service. That is, the cost of electric to heat the spa has to be more than $30 a month before I would save money using gas. I'm not sure that the cost of electric do that would be $30 a month. I am not saying it wouldn't be. I just don't know. So - after considering the cost of the gas connection how much more would it cost per month to heat the spa with electric rather than gas. $0? Or $10? In those cases, I go electric. On the other hand, if it $100 more a month net cost to heat the spa with electric then I would keep the gas heat for the pool and perhaps the water heater (I would still get the heat pump).

As for the safety of gas, I do think that gas is less safe than electric. I think that is simply a fact. Now -- at my last house I had gas service. That was what made sense at that house at the time (the house had existing gas cooktop and gas tankless water heater when we moved in). That said, I don't think that preferring all electric makes one mentally unstable.
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Old 07-27-2018, 07:40 AM   #39
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........ Actually several people have told me that heat pumps are very, very, very common in this area for new systems........
I'm not surprised by that. Homebuilders are forever looking to find ways to reduce their cost, a large cost being labor, particularly labor with some skill. It is much quicker to run a heavy Romex to different places in a house than it is to run gas pipe. Furthermore, since all houses will have electrical service anyway, the heating via electricity is an add-on, unlike gas, which requires a tap-in at the street main, service line to house, meter and regulator, etc. etc.

And price-point of the houses figures into it, too. In my area, there was incredible growth since about year 2000. The new houses being built were primarily two-story, all have gas, with multiple HVAC systems. Some have three systems. They are not cheaper houses, that's for sure!
We have a 2500+ sq. ft. single-story house that was built before the boom. We have two units, as the house is nicely divided between living area and bedrooms, and lends itself well to day/night reversal of occupancy, therefore thermostat settings.

Spa heater - I would suggest before making any decision, to look at the BTU per hour output rates of gas versus electric heaters. You may find that electrical units available with reasonable mechanics are too low of output. Like may be fine in say San Antonio or Austin, but not here. A mistake would be very $$$ to fix!

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That said, I don't think that preferring all electric makes one mentally unstable.
No, certainly not. I used that example because of how rare it is, it was the only example I have of anyone having all the gas fixtures ripped out and going all-electric, and that was in a northern climate. She really did have unreasonable fears, though it seems not of fire! She was a "gardener", whose idea of gardening was to rip out just about anything green, pile it into her barrel she used for burning stuff, and having pre-stuffed the bottom of it with newspaper, setting it alight. But it belched out smoke and noxious smells, no flame, for many many hours. Of which she wasn't home, she'd head out for an afternoon of shopping while it gassed the neighborhood. I think her deck count was below 52.
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Old 07-27-2018, 08:29 PM   #40
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replacing a gas-fired water heater with an electric heat pump water heater adds complexity & expense.

natural gas is so cheap I now set auxiliary heat (gas furnace) full-time on my heat pump in the winter to save wear & tear on the compressor.

plus I get 120+ ºF heat vs 105-110 ºF heat from the register that way.
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