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new jersey: thou shalt not kill
Old 12-13-2007, 06:06 PM   #1
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new jersey: thou shalt not kill

the anti-non-political thread

finding the death penalty "inconsistent with evolving standards of decency", new jersey becomes the first state to abolish capital punishment since the supreme court reinstated it 30 years ago.

i for one hope other states will follow new jersey's enlightened lead.

may compassion reign.
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Old 12-13-2007, 07:18 PM   #2
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I think most of these people are not worthy of compassion. But-some of them are innocent, as we have recently learned thanks to DNA evidence. So I am now against the death penalty.

Some poor guy maintains his innocence for 14 years on death row. Everyone including his own attorney thinks he is lying, as usually he will be.

But then someone else confesses, old rape kits are pulled out, and it turns out that this guy really is innocent.

ha
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Old 12-13-2007, 07:51 PM   #3
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that's the thing about compassion. it has less to do with their worth and more to do with yours.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:01 PM   #4
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I just read a book that discussed arrest, questioning, prosecution and appeal issues surrounding convictions for crimes people did not commit and how wrong decisions are reinforced through the human tendency of justification. Frightening.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:14 PM   #5
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Putting aside the death penalty issue, the rational for eliminating the death penalty: DNA analysis freeing the convicted and thereby the elimination of the death penalty - might be a bit off. Many of the people convicted and then freed were due to DNA tests not available when they were convicted. In other words, the rational is backward looking and not applicable to todays information.

From today on; if DNA tests were to prove a person guilty beyond any doubt wouldn't that ague for the legal penalty - possibly death?

Maybe the law change should have been that those sentenced to death without DNA evidence should have had their sentence communted to life and from this point on only those with DNA evidence could be sentensed to death and those without sentenced to life.

Again, this is just a thought process. Not a comment on the death penalty. Maybe the person convicted should have a choice of life or death?
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:21 PM   #6
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that's the thing about compassion. it has less to do with their worth and more to do with yours.
You are sooo good!

ha
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:45 PM   #7
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I have no problem with the death penalty. I also don't have any problem with a life sentence, when it is life, no parole. Also, it should be locked up in a 4 by 6 cell, no amenities! One hour a day out of the cell! i.e. hard time. When you talk about a life sentence you are not talking rehab, you are talking punishment so others may think twice, and you are talking warehousing.
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:12 AM   #8
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Good for New Jersey. Gov Corzine is suppose to sign it into law within the next few days.

While many say that the death penalty acts as a deterrent, just how true is that? Mass killings, school shootings, ramdom killings, children being raped and killed, and other acts of violence which result in deaths are still occurring so where is the deterrent? Texas which is the biggest executor of prisoners still has a problem with people being raped and killed.

Why is that those who are against abortion have no problem with the death penalty or with advocating wars? I know that some will say that in abortion the children can not defend themselves, but let's get real once someone is put to death does that not go against one of the 10 commandments "Thou shall not kill"?

GOD BLESS
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:18 AM   #9
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The horrifying thing that came out when Illinois suspended the death sentence was the large number of death row inmates who were later exonerated. That is what convinced the Governor to call a halt. If there are lots of false convictions in death cases what must be the ratio in more run of the mill crimes? Pretty damn scary -- and you can bet our system is far better than most.
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:55 AM   #10
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Until we fix the racial disparity issue, the death penalty is a non-starter. Amnesty International USA: Abolish the Death Penalty
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:03 AM   #11
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Suits me. As a NJ voter, I will have to find out who was responsible annd make sure I support them.
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:01 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum View Post
that's the thing about compassion. it has less to do with their worth and more to do with yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
You are sooo good!

ha
Is it more compassionate to be imprisoned for 65 years or more (assuming convicted at 20)? Don't we need to be even more compassionate and allow the convicted to have a choice of either life caged like an animal or a dignified death?
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:03 AM   #13
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Good for New Jersey. Gov Corzine is suppose to sign it into law within the next few days.

While many say that the death penalty acts as a deterrent, just how true is that? Mass killings, school shootings, ramdom killings, children being raped and killed, and other acts of violence which result in deaths are still occurring so where is the deterrent? Texas which is the biggest executor of prisoners still has a problem with people being raped and killed.

Why is that those who are against abortion have no problem with the death penalty or with advocating wars? I know that some will say that in abortion the children can not defend themselves, but let's get real once someone is put to death does that not go against one of the 10 commandments "Thou shall not kill"?

GOD BLESS

Only you can twist anything into a political thread............

I thought you were "riding off into the sunset"......that lasted a whole 7 hours...........
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:13 AM   #14
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Why is that those who are against abortion have no problem with the death penalty or with advocating wars? I know that some will say that in abortion the children can not defend themselves, but let's get real once someone is put to death does that not go against one of the 10 commandments "Thou shall not kill"?

GOD BLESS
The answer to the first part of your question is simple a child/fetus or whatever you want to call it normally has not done anything wrong, except be conceived. When someone is sentenced to death they have proved they are not willing to conform to societal norms and due to such behavior have committed acts of such extreme nature to be a great harm to society. Typically the person sentenced to death in not your first time offender.

The bible said thou shall not murder. If it said kill there would be several parts of the old testament in severe conflict with itself. Such as, If a man lies with another man as he would his wife he shall be put to death. I know there are several parts of the bible in conflict, but typically they are when comparing the old and new testaments or when interpretation enters the equation.
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:31 AM   #15
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Not a deterrent? Find me one person Texas executed that has killed, rapped or even jay walked! OK! Juts one. I won't hold my breath, but you might.
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Old 12-14-2007, 10:35 AM   #16
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Not a deterrent? Find me one person Texas executed that has killed, rapped or even jay walked! OK! Juts one. I won't hold my breath, but you might.
Where you asking me to produce at least one innocent person in Texas that had been executed?

Well here we go the man's name was Ruben Cantu, who was wrongfully executed in 1993.
Majikthise : Texas executed wrong man
Innocents lost. - By Dan Markel - Slate Magazine
NCADP - The National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty
Did Texas execute an innocent man? | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Then there's the link in which a number of people in Texas, who have been removed from death row
Life on the Row - TEXAS HAS UNDOUBTEDLY EXECUTED INNOCENT PEOPLE

Another good read on the death penalty is
index - Reasonable Doubts
Have Innocent People Been Put To Death In NC?

There are also questions about proper legal counsel and the issues involving race, etc..., etc....

One can not properly debate the death penalty without it becoming a religious or political matter.

As for referring to the Bible look at Matthew 22:36-40 in which the 2nd commandant is "Love your neighbor as yourself". Does this not also apply to those who are our enermies or who have committed violent crimes?

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).

GOD BLESS
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Old 12-14-2007, 10:40 AM   #17
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This is one issue I am perfectly happy to let someone else decide for me. On one side, you have a lot of innocent people who have been convicted in the good ole' days and it costs more for the death penalty than life imprisonment but on the other hand, prosecutors use the threat of the death penalty to negotiate life without parole deals where they get additional information and I really don't want serial killers and rapists ever escaping.

When you see the value of both sides, its hard to pick one...
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:40 PM   #18
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Well since I can't have it my way i.e. public execution at high noon in the town square where the offense occurred carried by networks live if desired; I'd settle for confinement if a super max facility like Pelican Bay for life without parole
DNA evidence used to convict should be the driver between the death penalty and life without parole. All convictions to date should be reviewed for DNA evidence. If it is not present the commute to a life without parole in a Super Max facility. If DNA is present and provides proof of murder then execute them. Do the execution within 1 year of conviction.
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:41 PM   #19
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As for referring to the Bible look at Matthew 22:36-40 in which the 2nd commandant is "Love your neighbor as yourself". Does this not also apply to those who are our enermies or who have committed violent crimes?
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And what does that have to do with the Commandment you posted earlier?
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:02 PM   #20
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One can not properly debate the death penalty without it becoming a religious or political matter.
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The carefully chosen snippets from the Bible are entertaining, but you have to admit that things have gotten a lot more civilized on this planet since the majority of people stopped taking that book literally. The greatest moral outrages today occur where people are guided by theology.

Some doozies that have helped keep the hatred burning for hundreds of years:

Slavery is okay, and the Bible provides lessons in how severely to beat them. Sex slavery is okay. Old or New Testament, the same theme:

-- A charming verse:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Need guidance on how hard to beat your slaves? Find it in the good book!

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Killing your children is mandatory if they reject your religion, killing witches is okay, etc, etc.

I know that a lot of people find solace in this book by cherry-picking the nice parts, so I'm not bashing the Bible or religion. I just don't think you've found a reliable source of guidance for capital punishment policy.
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