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Old 11-23-2012, 02:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
iPhoto has face recognition also, I assume similar to Picasso, but I'm not all that familiar with either.

In iPhoto, it scans and creates a database based on the features, and will link the ones that it determines are similar. At that point, you need to go in and assign a name to one that you recognize, and it will then assign that name to the similar-looking (to it) pictures. It will ask to confirm each.

So if the face is a total unknown to you, it won't help, unless you identified them in another photo, and the SW made a connection that escaped you (this is possible). I don't think any of these will go out and compare to images on the web, but maybe I'm wrong. But if we can't identify our own relatives, I doubt they are identified on the web anyhow.

It does it amazingly well, but sometimes (rarely) it is way off-base, a pattern on a rug might be called out as a face. It was confusing our DD and one of her friends, and I didn't even realize how similar they looked until I saw it coming up with these suggestions.

-ERD50
It might work. There are pictures of some of my relatives as children, and other photos which may or may not be some of those same relatives as adults. If the software can definitely say, for example "the adult man in photo A is the same as one of the boys in photo B" that would be quite helpful, because we already know who the boys are. Even if it can say with a good degree of certainty that the adult man is not the same person as any of the boys, it would be useful, because then we'd know he's not a blood relative. Thanks for the info.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:06 AM   #22
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iPhoto has face recognition also, I assume similar to Picasso, but I'm not all that familiar with either.

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Heh...
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File Type: jpg portrait+de+picasso+1938,+dora+maar-2.jpg (30.2 KB, 55 views)
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:53 AM   #23
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I guess my beef is something you either "get" or "don't get". I don't "get" the appeal of reality shows or football. I simply don't understand why people enjoy these things, let alone get excited about them.
I'm the same, but I can sensibly express why those things don't interest me, and I bet you can too.

But the reasons you give for opposing the way these cameras are being used, just doesn't make sense to me.

Quote:
And I don't believe for a moment that the stores' motives really are benevolent. You put your finger on it when you wrote "I really don't think they care a rats behind about who ERD50 is or what he buys, other than to try to get him to click a link and make a sale." All they want is to maximize their profits, by getting me to buy something, anything, regardless of whether the product sold really benefits me or meets my genuine need or a real desire, and by selling data about me to others to use for whatever purpose those others may choose.
Of course their motives are not benevolent, what is unique about that (It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.)? Every business tries to maximize profits, and don't really care about the consumer (other than the long-term thinkers want your loyalty, ... in order to maximize their profits!). Mankind has had to deal with that since the first barter exchange occurred between two cavemen. The Ford salesman isn't going to point you to a Honda that might better fit your needs, and you better know that going in. Let's not be naive.

Let's turn it around. Did you ever use google to search and find the best deal for something you wanted to buy? Is it 'scary' that all this information is available to you, and you can use it maximize your buying leverage. What about the company that might lose your sale, due to the availability of this data? Should that store with the high prices be able to lock up this data, and make that unavailable?


And I do believe you are being paranoid (or simply not thinking through the real motivations) if you think anyone wants to track you personally in this way. As in the examples, there is much more to be gained by using it to tailor their business to the general trends - it helps them answer questions like "Why don't we have more men visit at certain hours, what do those men buy during the most populated hours - maybe we need to staff those departments more fully at that time, etc" And that can benefit me, if they can run their bsiness more efficiently. No, they don;t do it for me, they do it for themselves, but I may benefit. Back to the earlier Adam Smith quote: It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.

If you are worried about being personally tracked, I 'd be much more afraid of some creep with little to no technology than these face recognition systems installed in retail stores.

-ERD50
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:00 AM   #24
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Tell me more about Picasa. I've got old family photos with unidentified people in them. Even my mom doesn't know who all the people are. Maybe that would help figure out who's who.
Google bought it some years ago and it's free.

Picasa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:06 AM   #25
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Heh...
Very good, LOL! I have to remember, the app is Picasa, not Picasso.

(thread-jack alert...) I'm still not sure what to make of the Picasso cubist period. But since I have seen and am impressed with his more realistic work (love the Old Man with Guitar at the Art Institute in Chicago), I at least try to see something in it. Sometimes I sorta feel like I sorta connect with some of it, ...sorta.

-ERD50
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:20 AM   #26
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@kyounge1956

Oh, I **get** your objection. What I DON'T get is why you don't just vote with your feet. You can never control OTHERS (be it children, spouses or neighbors... or the jerk in a restaurant NOISILY chatting on a phone). ALL you can do is control YOUR OWN response. Beating your head against a wall over and over does nothing. Since it is a major problem for YOU....ASK what a merchan's policy is and respond by either shopping or NOT shopping there. That seems to be a better response than getting completely whacked out and upset. Unless you really enjoy being all amped up... some folks DO actually ENJOY that. Years ago, in my youth, I worked in a shipping dept for an auto parts warehouse. We had a guy who ran a delivery service to auto parts stores within, say, 100 miles. A long daily route. He SEEMED to be happy ONLY when there was something he could bitch about. SO... to please him, we intentionally made small errors. He complained and felt useful. Every one was happy - even Mr. Grumpy.

LET IT GO and enjoy life. The old saying is SO true - Life (really) is too short!
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:41 AM   #27
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I'm the same, but I can sensibly express why those things don't interest me, and I bet you can too.

But the reasons you give for opposing the way these cameras are being used, just doesn't make sense to me.
Your reasons for enjoying football (or whatever) probably wouldn't make any sense to me either.

Quote:
Of course their motives are not benevolent, what is unique about that (It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.)? Every business tries to maximize profits, and don't really care about the consumer (other than the long-term thinkers want your loyalty, ... in order to maximize their profits!). Mankind has had to deal with that since the first barter exchange occurred between two cavemen. The Ford salesman isn't going to point you to a Honda that might better fit your needs, and you better know that going in. Let's not be naive.

Let's turn it around. Did you ever use google to search and find the best deal for something you wanted to buy? Is it 'scary' that all this information is available to you, and you can use it maximize your buying leverage. What about the company that might lose your sale, due to the availability of this data? Should that store with the high prices be able to lock up this data, and make that unavailable?
The difference is that the stores voluntarily put this information out there in hope of attracting the attention of buyers. Nobody forces them to do it, they can put it out or not, as they choose. As the target of hidden cameras, I'm not given any choice in the matter.

Quote:
And I do believe you are being paranoid (or simply not thinking through the real motivations) if you think anyone wants to track you personally in this way. As in the examples, there is much more to be gained by using it to tailor their business to the general trends - it helps them answer questions like "Why don't we have more men visit at certain hours, what do those men buy during the most populated hours - maybe we need to staff those departments more fully at that time, etc" And that can benefit me, if they can run their bsiness more efficiently. No, they don;t do it for me, they do it for themselves, but I may benefit. Back to the earlier Adam Smith quote: It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.

If you are worried about being personally tracked, I 'd be much more afraid of some creep with little to no technology than these face recognition systems installed in retail stores.

-ERD50
Well, maybe I misunderstand the original paragraph. The article says this software recognizes individual faces and tracks the buying pattern of individuals, even if supposedly that data remains anonymous, and that's what I object to.
Quote:
“The golden ticket is getting to the point where they’ve got my details, they know what I bought last time I came in.” (emphasis added)
If it is only the patterns of groups of individuals which are being tracked...white men age 30-40 buy this, Asian women age 20-30 come in the afternoon rather than the morning, it isn't as bad, but I still think it is a slippery slope which could easily segue into the kind of data accumulation about individuals without their consent which I find so objectionable. And I think stores would accumulate and trade in such individual data files, with or without a name associated, without giving the desires of the individuals being tracked a moment's thought.

As for a "creep", if there was such an individual targeting me, I would be more afraid of him than the stores. I'm not so much afraid of the stores as offended by their intrusiveness. I resent that they feel like they have a right to gather data on me without asking first, and that they use it or sell it to others, also without my consent. To my way of thinking, data about me belongs to me, to release or not as I see fit.

But I think that's all I'm going to say about it. It really does appear to be a get it/don't get it kind of thing.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:24 PM   #28
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But I think that's all I'm going to say about it. It really does appear to be a get it/don't get it kind of thing.
But I'm not done yet!

Maybe it's just me, but when I find that I can't get someone to understand my POV, it makes me question my POV a bit deeper, and/or question how I am explaining it. If I have to resort to "you just don't get it", I always figure maybe I'm the one not getting it. But then, I like a challenge.

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Your reasons for enjoying football (or whatever) probably wouldn't make any sense to me either.
Maybe you misunderstood, and maybe it's not important - but I don't care for football either. But I can explain why. Others obviously won't agree, but my explanation should at least make sense to them. And it doesn't make either of us 'wrong'.

Quote:
The difference is that the stores voluntarily put this information out there in hope of attracting the attention of buyers. Nobody forces them to do it, they can put it out or not, as they choose. As the target of hidden cameras, I'm not given any choice in the matter.

... but I still think it is a slippery slope which could easily segue into the kind of data accumulation about individuals without their consent which I find so objectionable.
I still think you are just reading WAY too much into this, and you are treating a technology solution differently from the same thing done with humans.

If a PERSON who works for the store is assigned to monitor traffic, and given a clipboard to try to collect some demographics on the shoppers (age, gender, shopping in a group or alone, etc), you have no choice in the matter. They are now simply using face recognition and cameras to do this more efficiently.

When stores put the high-profit stuff on the eye-level shelf, and the generics on the bottom shelf, you have no choice in the matter.

I never buy 'slippery slope' arguments unless I can see a motivation to go down that slope. Speed limits didn't result in every road being assigned a speed limit of zero mph, etc. I don't understand what it is that you are afraid of.

As far as all this invasion of privacy and non-voluntary use of info - IIRC, you were supporting the use of a lot of personal questions on the Census form. I object to that as it is collected as personal data, and I saw it as very likely to be misused, plus a waste of money. When a store uses this info, they are trying to improve efficiencies, and I will likely benefit. And they don't threaten me with jail time and a fine for not sticking my face in the camera!

-ERD50
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:43 PM   #29
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I think it may be time to look for my old pair of novelty Groucho Marx glasses with a mustache.

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Old 11-23-2012, 08:07 PM   #30
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Gee, people, this is marketing! Give the poor merchants a break.

If I go to my regular favorite restaurant and the waitperson says something like "You usually have the xyz plate -- will you be having that today or do you want something else, what is that? Facial recognition -- probably so.

... the kid that bags groceries at the grocery store -- today he is bagging at the station next to the one I am using, but when he sees me, he goes to the bagger at my station and says "this customer likes to leave the store with one paper bag and the rest plastic"? Facial recognition? Yep, probably so.

And years ago, before computers were so ubiquitous and waay before facial recognition software was in use, I was grocery shopping for just a few items very late. The customer service station was closed and that function was being handled at the regular registers. The guy in front of me tried to return an item but didn't have a receipt. He was turned away by the cashier. As he left the store, the floor manager walked to the cashier and, after discussing, told the cashier that she did the right thing. He said something to the effect that, on a weekly basis, this guy brings stuff that we do not sell here into the store attempting to get refunds. We think he is stealing the stuff from Home Depot (This was a tape measure). The guy had a very easily recognizable scar on his face. Facial recognition -- absolutely -- the old fashioned way.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:13 AM   #31
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More and more like the movie/book "Minority Report"

Interesting thread....with my work in Europe, they have a definite requirement to OPT IN for any data gathering or user privacy not OPT OUT as is the norm in the US. But then again, in Europe they have first-hand experience on what totalitarian regimes can do with information that is gathered about you and stored......it first started out with a political party and then became part of the government.

There are two edges to the knife.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:33 AM   #32
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Interesting thread....with my work in Europe, they have a definite requirement to OPT IN for any data gathering or user privacy not OPT OUT as is the norm in the US. ...

There are two edges to the knife.
But I don't think there is any evidence they are collecting data at the personal level. They are looking for trends in demographics - how many men, women, a certain age group, and/or race enter the store at various times.

Opting out of that would be like opting out of a traffic count where they are trying to measure the need for a road expansion, or determine if there is enough traffic to support a proposed business. 'Hey, you can't count me - I didn't give my permission!' I don't think so.

As others have pointed out, if I go to a store and buy some paint, and a salesperson helps me, and then says - 'do you need any brushes or drop cloths to go with that?' - it's pretty much the same thing. But some people get upset when a camera/computer does that?

-ERD50
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