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Old 03-19-2008, 10:46 AM   #41
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I don't think Obama will visit Pastor Manning's church any time soon.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:04 AM   #42
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I don't normally read or reply to posts on this forum having to do solely with politics. I admire all of you people and value your insight, and I don't want that to be tainted by possibly knowing that I strongly disagree with your political views.

That said, I can't help chiming in a little on this one. I was sorry to see the screamin' cable channels make such a big deal of Obama's affiliation with a church.

Obama's speech was remarkable. Read it sure, but also watch it if you can.


I have little doubt this will go down as one of the great speeches of our time. It was also a textbook case of what NOT to do in a presidential election. It was long, nuanced, could easily be pulled apart into tiny soundbites to be criticized by Limbaugh and the like. (In fact, he was doing that on air immediately after the speech was given). It was written in paragraphs, not made up of 4 word declarative
sentences like "Racism is bad," as we have been listening to our President give for the past 8 years.

I have been a supporter of this man's campaign since the beginning of the race, and I continue to be now. This speech may not help him at all in the race. I do not think that was a big consideration in him writing this speech though. It was however a wonderful speech , and I'm almost glad the CNNs and FOX stations made such a big deal of Wright so that it gave him an opportunity to give it.

And let's not forget McCain sought the endorsement of John Hagee:
(Text follows from this link)

In all of the Rush Limbaugh-fueled outrage about the comments of Wright, let's not forget about the influential evangelical Pastor John Hagee.
This is the man that Sen. John McCain sought and received the endorsement of. (read story here.)
On Fresh Air in 2006, Terri Gross asked Pastor Hagee, "Do you still think that Katrina is punishment from God for a society that's becoming like Sodom and Gomorrah?"
His answer:
HAGEE: All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are -- were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know that there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the day of judgment. And I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.
John McCain on getting Hagee's endorsement, "All I can tell you is I'm very proud to have pastor Hagee's support."
Hear the entire interview with Hagee at NPR:
Pastor John Hagee on Christian Zionism : NPR




OK. No more politics here from me. Thanks.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:06 AM   #43
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TClearly the speech was meant for Caucasian moderate Republican voters like me, but it didn't work for me as a voter.......sorry.......:confused:

BTW, I am not rascist........

t.r.
I don't think he was aiming at you. There is no reason you would hop the fence from McCain. He was aiming at moderate Caucasian Democrats and independents who he could lose to Hillary now and, potentially, to McCain in the fall.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:10 AM   #44
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TeeRuh
Thank you for the reply.
I didn't see them because they are not a change that is needed in my mindset. I have those concepts in my beliefs.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:30 AM   #45
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Two things struck me:

First, the pastor thing should be a non-issue, and would be except that the media found something that could be whipped up into a big deal, increase viewers, and sell more commercials.
.
I agree, Al.
The issue for me is:

1. Pastor Wright brought the senator into the church
2. The Pastor was the leader of the church
3. The has been attending the church for 20 years over which time the pastor's postions which the senator rejected and denounced were expressed
4. The senator did not - until recently - stand up against those sermons that he is now denouncing.
5. The senator made the pastor an advisor for his presidential campaign
6. The senator was married by the pastor and took his children to hear the pastor's offensive sermons.
7. The pastor has been a mentor for the senator

So the issue is: What does this 20 year association and the senator's choices say about his ability to know right from wrong and to stand up against it.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:37 AM   #46
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Two things struck me:

First, the pastor thing should be a non-issue, and would be except that the media found something that could be whipped up into a big deal, increase viewers, and sell more commercials.
Could be, but Obama is smart enough to know that the average American voter DOES care whether the President of the USA has religious values, and what those values are.

Many voters would NOT be swayed by Obama's relationship with Pastor Wright, but ENOUGH could be to make it an issue...........

The ONLY real issue I have with Obama is the I believe he lied when he said he never personally HEARD any sermons where Pastor Wright spewed anti-American diatribe...........there's no way in 20 YEARS,he wasn't exposed to some of it............
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:21 PM   #47
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I second Laurencewill's statements. I have attended churches regularly where I do not agree with (or even necessarily pay attention to) the sermons/topics/delivery/tones/priest/pastor/fellow parishoners. Does not keep me from there - I am there for MY OWN REASONS, not to listen to the preacher pontificate about things I do not concern myself with. I also have loved ones and plenty of acquaintances who's beliefs are VERY different from mine (race, politics, religion, woes of the world, etc) These individuals do not define me, and to those who think I share such opinions are missing out on what I do offer.

I'm with LW - guess I better not run for office either!
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:41 PM   #48
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My question

I curious how many southern born presidents attended services in southern churches during the heyday of segregation, and heard the preacher go on about negroes being kept in their place. Using the bible to justify slavery and Jim Crow. So much for selective rage.
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:31 PM   #49
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These individuals do not define me, and to those who think I share such opinions are missing out on what I do offer.
Longfellow "We judge ourselves by what we are capable of doing while others judge us by what we have already done."
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Old 03-19-2008, 01:36 PM   #50
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I curious how many southern born presidents attended services in southern churches during the heyday of segregation, and heard the preacher go on about negroes being kept in their place. Using the bible to justify slavery and Jim Crow. So much for selective rage.
Why wonder; let's not use guilt by "possible" association like others have done with the senator.

The senator and this discussion deserves reasoned discourse.

Here is a good place to start your research.
US Presidents: Lists and Records
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Old 03-19-2008, 02:32 PM   #51
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TAl,
I am not sure the pastor thing is a non-issue. We are educated in several ways. For a lot of us, schools, religious establishments, and life in general make up the bulk of our education and impact who we are and how we think. As Obama has been a member of this church for 20 years, what this church was teaching becomes an issue, because it is so far out of the main stream. If it were not, he would have never made the speach.
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:57 PM   #52
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You are equating a statement about Harry Potter with the racists ones such as whites developed aids to kill blacks?

Before you ask others for something maybe you should make the case that the statements the pastor made are not that bad and the senator was wrong to denounced them. How about it?
Specifically that Wiccans/Pagans = devil worshipers and perpetuating a myth that led to the burning of thousands at the stake for heresy, but I did not extrapolate on that.

As for as your second point....why? If someone says to you "why do you like peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches?" do you say, "why do you like ham on rye?"

I never said I didn't think the comments the pastor made were no big deal, my point is we all have people close to us or in our lives that if we ran for office the media could jump all over and make a big deal about. The tone of your posts come across as a prosecuting attorney rather than a member of the jury, so I was asking if there was anyone who was genuinely turned from pro to anti-Obama by this "event". If we had to qualify every question with a lengthy oratory we'd never get anywhere!
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:01 PM   #53
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As Obama has been a member of this church for 20 years, what this church was teaching becomes an issue, because it is so far out of the main stream. If it were not, he would have never made the speach.
I don't know about that -- we only have a few cherry-picked clips under a minute. Hard to conclude that's what the church was teaching for 20 years. If it was, I would agree with you, but it might also be the preacher had a bad day, he was angry about something and projected it in his sermon, etc. Not saying he did, just saying we don't know. Obama claims he wasn't there when those particular sermons were given and if he had he would have strongly objected.

Here's a link to the church's ministries. This looks like a very social-based church to me, nothing radical in any of these ministries.

Trinity United Church of Christ

I don't know if I would vote for Obama -- but if I do (or don't) it will be on the basis of his positions on the real issues facing this country - the economy, defense, health care, etc, and not on some cherry picked you tube video.
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:44 PM   #54
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I don't know about that -- we only have a few cherry-picked clips under a minute. Hard to conclude that's what the church was teaching for 20 years. If it was, I would agree with you, but it might also be the preacher had a bad day, he was angry about something and projected it in his sermon, etc. Not saying he did, just saying we don't know. Obama claims he wasn't there when those particular sermons were given and if he had he would have strongly objected.

Here's a link to the church's ministries. This looks like a very social-based church to me, nothing radical in any of these ministries.

Trinity United Church of Christ

I don't know if I would vote for Obama -- but if I do (or don't) it will be on the basis of his positions on the real issues facing this country - the economy, defense, health care, etc, and not on some cherry picked you tube video.
You might want to follow these links
Trinity United Church of Christ

The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology that started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone’s book, Black Power and Black Theology.

James Hal Cone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
read the whole entry but here is some of it

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:11 PM   #55
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I would love to believe that the racism of our past is behind us. Most of us now reject beliefs that were once common. Groups like the Klan are now mostly isolated fringe. But, I know from personal experience that it is not completely gone. I have heard people say things that make me cringe. Will admit I didn't call them on it.

It hasn't been that many years since David Duke made a serious run at being governor of Louisiana. Since I used to live there it was sad for me to see that. Also, had a co-worker there whom I suspect may have been a klan member. Within the past year, the klan has distributed leaflets in my neighborhood(I threw mine in the trash where it belonged).

So, while the anger that Pastor Wright showed, while uncomfortable and not helpful, is in many ways understandable.

Wish I knew how we could move forward to heal these wounds, but afraid I don't.
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:41 PM   #56
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You might want to follow these links
Trinity United Church of Christ

The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology that started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone’s book, Black Power and Black Theology.

James Hal Cone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
read the whole entry but here is some of it

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love
Well, look, not being black, I can't speak to black theology. But if it's linked to liberation theology, I'm Catholic and there are some Jesuit liberation theologians who would make this Preacher Wright look like a pacifist in comparison. Doesn't mean because I'm Catholic, or have attended Jesuit churches I believe in most of that crap.

I note from the link you posted the following:

. To have a church whose theological perspective starts from the vantage point of Black liberation theology being its center, is not to say that African or African American people are superior to any one else. • African-centered thought, unlike Eurocentrism, does not assume superiority and look at everyone else as being inferior.
• There is more than one center from which to view the world. In the words of Dr. Janice Hale, “Difference does not mean deficience.” It is from this vantage point that Black liberation theology speaks.

Sounds to me like they are trying to instill equality in the minds of their black congregation members, not superiority. The superiority gospel was left with the Black Panthers in the 60s.

Anyway, as I said, I'm not going to decide who to vote for on the basis of some preacher whose church I don't attend, or on a short video where that preacher spewed racist comments. I wouldn't go to that church, but I take Obama at his words in the same way I take McCain on his words about that anti catholic preacher he's been associated with.

In short, this election is to important to be left to religious innuendo.
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:50 PM   #57
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I don't know about that -- we only have a few cherry-picked clips under a minute. Hard to conclude that's what the church was teaching for 20 years.
The reason we have those 'cherry-picked clips' is the church was selling the DVD on line. So they are clips the church/reverend picked.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:34 PM   #58
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Well, look, not being black, I can't speak to black theology. But if it's linked to liberation theology, I'm Catholic and there are some Jesuit liberation theologians who would make this Preacher Wright look like a pacifist in comparison. Doesn't mean because I'm Catholic, or have attended Jesuit churches I believe in most of that crap.
I was going to raise the same point. Some of the Jesuits in Central America were pretty extreme. A good friend of the family is a Jesuit who was stationed in Central America and South Africa for many years. He tosses out some opinions that will curl your hair. Sometimes they are simply intended to curl your hair and get the thoughts flowing.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:15 PM   #59
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The reason we have those 'cherry-picked clips' is the church was selling the DVD on line. So they are clips the church/reverend picked.
Maybe we should get the DVD and see what else is on there. A DVD can hold hours and hours of stuff. If it's all filled with hate and venom, that's one thing, but if it's 3 hours of social gospel and 1 minute of saying something that's inexcusable, that's another thing. Do you think it's suspicious that someone got this DVD, cut out a minute that would raise racial issues, and put it on youtube to be played and replayed over and over again?

Maybe we should also get Jerry Falwell's videos or a John Hagee video, whose endorsement McCain accepted (“Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews.").

Bottom line, the videos that surfaced were enough for me to want to hear what Obama had to say. I heard what he had to say, I'm satisfied, and I'm ready to move on to the economy, defense, and health care. As I said, I don't know if I'm going to vote for the man, but if this election, this year, is decided on racial matters in the US, we will have taken a huge step back, my friends.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:42 PM   #60
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Well, look, not being black, I can't speak to black theology. But if it's linked to liberation theology, I'm Catholic and there are some Jesuit liberation theologians who would make this Preacher Wright look like a pacifist in comparison. Doesn't mean because I'm Catholic, or have attended Jesuit churches I believe in most of that crap.
I do not believe the color of your skin precludes you from commenting on the theology of the senator's church.

Nor do I think that finding wrongs in other religions justifies the wrongs expressed by the pastor.

We can always find an equal or greater wrong to justify a wrong postion. If we do that we can never advance as a people we can only be as good as the level of least wrong we can find.
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