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Old 03-19-2008, 07:44 PM   #61
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As for as your second point....why? If someone says to you "why do you like peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches?" do you say, "why do you like ham on rye?"
Looks like a fallacious argument to me.
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:44 PM   #62
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I do not believe the color of your skin precludes you from commenting on the theology of the senator's church.

Nor do I think that finding wrongs in other religions justifies the wrongs expressed by the pastor.

We can always find an equal or greater wrong to justify a wrong postion. If we do that we can never advance as a people we can only be as good as the level of least wrong we can find.
That's fair, I agree with all the above. I do find fault in the small bit of theology I''ve seen from that church, and the minute or so of pronouncements I've seen from the preacher. I would not join that church, nor would I support the preacher if he was running for office.

The real issue, however, is how much that rubs off on one of its members. Not being a member myself, the only way I have to judge that is to hear the member speak on the subject. That member states he was not there when those comments were made, and rejects the comments. That's good enough for me, although he did exhibit bad judgment in not coming out earlier.

I'm not the most faithful member of my church, but I bet if someone went through their theological pronouncements they may find something that I strongly disagree with.

Anyway, I do understand your position as well, but don't consider theology important enough to tip my vote. Not when we're on the brink of a financial breakdown, are in a military quagmire, are losing jobs to outsourcing, are being inundated with illegals, and have tens of millions without health care. I don't know if Obama is the guy to fix all of that, or if anyone can, but a person's religous beliefs, or those of his/her pastor, would be about number 117 in my list of important things.
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:26 PM   #63
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Some people just deserve a lot of credit for their courage especially when they speak from the heart. I hope other conservatives are courageous enough.
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:06 PM   #64
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I curious how many southern born presidents attended services in southern churches during the heyday of segregation, and heard the preacher go on about negroes being kept in their place. Using the bible to justify slavery and Jim Crow. So much for selective rage.
Excuse my being astounded, but what in the world does that have to do with the subject of this thread & the current (year 2008 ) controversy re: Senator/Presidential Candidate Obama & his racist buddy/confidant/advisor/mentor of 20 years (& very public & political person) Jeremiah Wright? (whom Obama by his own personal admission privately & direcly consulted with on the eve of deciding to run for president)

If you commit a murder & your defense attorney points out to the jury that others have committed murders in the past & got away with it - should the jury acquit you?
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:11 PM   #65
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Looks like a fallacious argument to me.
A List Of Fallacious Arguments

Which one? Above is supplied a list. I was merely responding to the posters comment that I should apply a defense for another person's action before I ask questions, which makes no sense to me.
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:19 AM   #66
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I think it was an amazing speech. I'm white and my family is multi-racial. Growing up in a white world, in a very sheltered world, I didn't witness much racism. Not until I married and started raising a family did I learn about the hate in the hearts of some people.

I thought that Obama's speech was truthful and real. I didn't find it PC and full of sound bites.

Why I support Obama is that I think if anyone is going to fight special interest groups it's him. If anyone is going to help the poor of all races, it's him. If anyone is going to help the middle class it's him. If anyone is going to put a stop to Bush's war, it's Obama.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:49 AM   #67
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[quote=Letj;631413]

Thank you for posting this - I am sorry so many of the candidates were eliminated so early in the game before we had a chance to really get to know them and their positions.

Obama has been a blank slate and has been given a pass by most of the media - but now the blanks are being filled in and we are getting to know the man. If we leave race out of this - what does he stand for?? :confused:

As far as I can tell, all we really know about him is that he will raise taxes on the "rich" to help the "poor" and he said he'd almost immediately start to pull the troops out of Iraq - which initially seemed to garner him most of his supporters - but lately he seems to be backing away from that. Also he has a proposal for health care insurance for everyone -but words are cheap & I'd like a lot more details about that.... Unfortunately, it may already be too late to do anything about him even if he is found to be wanting. As in the past several elections - I fear we will be stuck with voting for the lesser of two evils.

I am amazed and frightened that so many seem to believe everything he says and are so enamored of him - it seems to be like a cult. I just don't think we know nearly enough about this man to follow him so blindly.
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:58 AM   #68
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Maybe we should also get Jerry Falwell's videos or a John Hagee video, whose endorsement McCain accepted (“Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews.").
Oops, maybe I should call Godwin's Law on myself. Maybe the OP should close this thread.
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Old 03-20-2008, 08:34 AM   #69
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Anyway, I do understand your position as well, but don't consider theology important enough to tip my vote. Not when we're on the brink of a financial breakdown, are in a military quagmire, are losing jobs to outsourcing, are being inundated with illegals, and have tens of millions without health care. I don't know if Obama is the guy to fix all of that, or if anyone can, but a person's religous beliefs, or those of his/her pastor, would be about number 117 in my list of important things.
I appreciate your point of view. And I also appreciate that you took the time to give what you point of view is along with the why you hold that view.

I often find the "why" of a person's opinion more interesting and telling then the actual opinion. The thought process an what information we focus upon is very interesting.

In many issues I attempt to be objective about the discussion about it. My point of view on a subject is not who I am so I do not take the discussion personally if someone points out flaws in my thought process - I appreciate it.
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:42 AM   #70
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Some people just deserve a lot of credit for their courage especially when they speak from the heart. I hope other conservatives are courageous enough.
I thought Huckabee made important points in this interview, I found his comments thoughtful and compassionate.

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Old 03-20-2008, 10:10 AM   #71
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To expand on Mr. Huckabee's point with anecdotal evidence...

I've lived in rural Indiana, Atlanta, and DFW, and whether rural, suburban, or urban, there are still many, many people with an often uncharacterisitic "mean streak" when it comes to other races, religions, and ethnicities.

Back in the late 70s, I was out back of a bar, while the band was on break, getting some "fresh air" . While passing around the "fresh air", during the conversation I mentioned that I knew a local musician, who happened to not be Causcasian.

The guy next to me grabbed my shirt, damn near tearing it off, then proceeded to call me a n-word lover. Man, shades of skinhead. After managing to avoid getting my a$$ kicked, I hightailed it out of there.

I have other, equally scary, accounts...
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:11 PM   #72
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Obama has been a blank slate and has been given a pass by most of the media - but now the blanks are being filled in and we are getting to know the man. If we leave race out of this - what does he stand for?? :confused:

As far as I can tell, all we really know about him is that he will raise taxes on the "rich" to help the "poor"
Hello Outtarentals. You're right about Obama being a 'blank slate'. But on taxes Obama's position is to adjust Bush's tax cuts to give more relief to the middle class. Obama's position was shared by McCain back in 2001.

"I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who need tax relief."
--John McCain, May 2001
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:23 PM   #73
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I thought Huckabee made important points in this interview, I found his comments thoughtful and compassionate.
Agreed. IMO, we can't really solve the issues of race unless people can openly and freely discuss their perspectives and experiences without immediately being brandished as racist.

I suspect many folks (if not most) may have had some negative experiences with, or negative stereotypes about, folks of other races. Maybe it came from an incident in their life. Maybe it came "by osmosis" from older generations in their family passing it down. And even though I think the majority of us don't act on those preconceived notions and even though many of us aren't proud of holding these feelings, they are very real. And the sooner we can admit them without being made to feel like the scum of the earth, the sooner we can really have an engaging and substantive discussion about race in America.

Just about anyone who says they have *never* had their opinions of anyone influenced by their race is probably lying. We can't expect each other to be perfect, but we need to at least accept that most people mean well and that the more we can work through our flaws, the more we can get, well...past the past.
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:52 PM   #74
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Hello Outtarentals. You're right about Obama being a 'blank slate'. But on taxes Obama's position is to adjust Bush's tax cuts to give more relief to the middle class. Obama's position was shared by McCain back in 2001.

"I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who need tax relief."--John McCain, May 2001
Better be careful for what you wish - as early retirees, many of us on this forum would be considered "rich".
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:59 PM   #75
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There are black bigots and white bigots--intolerance and prejudice is not restricted to one side or the other along racial lines. The biggest difference in attitudes is not between blacks and whites, but between older folks and younger ones. In general, race just is not that big of an issue with younger people. When you hear someone speaking in ways that "make you cringe", it is far more likely (in my experience) to be an older person. Because I'm white, most of the people who would say things like this in my presence are also white, and they are almost without exception older than 50. If Obama is right, the situation is much the same in the "black community."

So, as long as we keep our guard up and don't backslide into a new cycle of fingerpointing, this problem will (in large part) solve itself in a few decades.

In addition to the difference in tolerance between older and younger folks, I think there's also difference according to economic status. Poorer people (black and white) are (again, in my expereince) more likely to hold intolerant views. This is also good news--these people have less ability to have a negative influence on larger events.

Not that all old or poor people are intolerant--far from it. But a disproportionate number are.
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:09 PM   #76
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samclem - good observation. IMO you are right on target.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:05 PM   #77
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Better be careful for what you wish - as early retirees, many of us on this forum would be considered "rich".
I don't think so. During my working years I never supported the Reagan and later Bush tax cuts which were very good for my pocketbook. By the time the Bush cuts expire (if the dems win and if they do expire) DW will have pulled the plug and we will be well below the income thresholds cited in any proposals I have heard of. I would expect that virtually all of the retired people here would be in the same boat. Now capital gains going back up would be another story -- but I will bet that doesn't happen principally because it does effect a lot of retirees nowadays.
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:12 PM   #78
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In addition to the difference in tolerance between older and younger folks, I think there's also difference according to economic status. Poorer people (black and white) are (again, in my expereince) more likely to hold intolerant views. This is also good news--these people have less ability to have a negative influence on larger events.

Not that all old or poor people are intolerant--far from it. But a disproportionate number are.
Is that why the working class "down scale" whites are not voting for Obama? Can I conclude that they started the issue of race in this campaign long before Rev. Wright's video surfaced? Is it legitimate to say that they were waiting for an incident to remind them that he is black?
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Old 03-20-2008, 08:31 PM   #79
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There are black bigots and white bigots--intolerance and prejudice is not restricted to one side or the other along racial lines. The biggest difference in attitudes is not between blacks and whites, but between older folks and younger ones. In general, race just is not that big of an issue with younger people. When you hear someone speaking in ways that "make you cringe", it is far more likely (in my experience) to be an older person. Because I'm white, most of the people who would say things like this in my presence are also white, and they are almost without exception older than 50. If Obama is right, the situation is much the same in the "black community."

Not that all old or poor people are intolerant--far from it. But a disproportionate number are.
I agree with Sam here and it isn't just white vs black or black vs white prejudice that is a function of age. I remember my Dad who didn't even see combat, in WWII refused to buy Japanese cars for many decades and even was upset with my sister buying one in the 70s. He explained I can't buy a car from Mitsubishi they made Zeros that killed my friends. Among the many Pearl Harbor survivors/WWII combat veteran, that I've met I've heard plenty of anti Japanese slurs. Nam vets often make derogatory comments about Vietnamese. Even Senator McCain, who championed reconciliation with North Vietnam, referred to his captors as Gooks.

Gov. Huckabee raises a good point, a measure of understanding is in order for bigoted older people who've been horribly mistreated by another group. I still cringe when I heard bigoted statements like Reverend Wright makes, but my condemnation isn't nearly as much as if I heard the same garbage from 20 year old white or black kid.
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:05 PM   #80
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Is that why the working class "down scale" whites are not voting for Obama?
I think that might be a reason--that poor people are more likely to hold racial prejudices. But, given that Hillary and Obama are virtually indistinguishable on economic issues, and that the vote among blacks is far more skewed toward Obama than the white vote is skewed toward Clinton, I think it is very interesting that you ask if it is the poor white voters who are intolerant. The effect is clearly stronger among poor black voters, but this seems to escape your notice.

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Can I conclude that they started the issue of race in this campaign long before Rev. Wright's video surfaced? Is it legitimate to say that they were waiting for an incident to remind them that he is black?
Who are the "they" and "them" in your statements? I don't think anybody "started" the issue of race in this campaign, there is no master conspiracy. Obama is the first serious black candidate for president, it was inevitable that this subject would come up. I think the debate to this point has been terrifically productive, in large part due to the way Obama has handled it.

I think Obama has tremendous potential to bring the nation together on this issue of race. I also think he's a gifted speaker, and that is not a skill that should be under-rated (the last 8 years should be sufficient illustration, by its absence, of the importance of this in a President). I just disagree with him on nearly every important issue: The war in Iraq, the proper role of government, the roots and means of continuation of American economic prosperity, the role of America in the world. Oh, and the fact that he's just not been alive long enough to have sufficient background for the job. These are very big issues, and too much to overlook in order to get a good speaker who can help us bridge a racial divide that we are bridging anyway (albeit at too slow a rate).

Off topic: "Working class" is a very funny label. The implication being, I guess, that professionals, managers, etc don't work.
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