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Old 03-21-2008, 02:44 PM   #101
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I think it's important to remember that the Obama that excited and made people feel hopeful is the same person now as he was before this issue erupted - meaning - he was able to come to his own conclusions and set out a Vision of a better america for all of us.

He understands that every community has insight to offer as well as ignorance to overcome - anyone who thinks that they as an individual or the community you come from doesn't is probably in a bit of denial.

I also think the dialogue that is happening now is very valuable. It's important to talk about race and be honest that we have all received biased perceptions, images and stereotypes whether it be from inside our families and neighborhoods or perpetuated on TV etc. I don't think Obama was throwing his granny under the bus - but was making the point that everyone has these views and he understands that.
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Old 03-21-2008, 03:30 PM   #102
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I don't think Obama was throwing his granny under the bus - but was making the point that everyone has these views and he understands that.
I think you proved my point - Senator Obama has a distorted view of history due to his association with the Pastor Wright. Not everyone has the views you describe.

There are other examples that you can reseach.

These people helped to build; supported and risked their lives. To taint their sacrifice with what you describe is wrong - no other word for it. I don't make such a comment lightly. But not to stand up and say you are wrong is dishonor the memory of those who came before and those who are now working for equality - white, black or whatever.

American Civil Rights Movement (1896–1954) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The American Jewish community and the civil rights movement

Many from the American Jewish community tacitly or actively supported the civil rights movement. Several of the co-founders of the NAACP were Jewish. Many of its white members and leading activists came from within the Jewish community. The great majority of American Jews who were active in promoting civil rights were secular Jews, Reform Jews and Conservative Jews, especially during the later years.
Jewish philanthropists actively supported the NAACP and various civil rights group, and schools for African-Americans. The Jewish philanthropist Julius Rosenwald funded the creation of dozens of primary schools, secondary schools and colleges for disenfranchised black youth. He created a fund which provided seed money for building 5,000 schools for black Americans, mostly in the rural South. What is most remarkable is that black communities essentially taxed themselves twice to pay for such schools, which required community matching funds. Often blacks comprised most of the residents. Public funds were committed for the schools, and they raised additional funds by community events, and sometimes by members' getting second mortgages on their homes. At one time some forty percent of rural southern blacks were learning at Rosenwald elementary schools.
Rosenwald also contributed to historically black colleges such as Howard, Dillard and Fisk universities.
The PBS television show From Swastika to Jim Crow discussed Jewish involvement in the civil rights movement. It demonstrated that Jewish survivors of the Holocaust came to teach at many Southern schools, where they reached out to black students
Thus, in the 1930s and '40s when Jewish refugee professors arrived at Southern Black Colleges, there was a history of overt empathy between Blacks and Jews, and the possibility of truly effective collaboration. Professor Ernst Borinski organized dinners at which Blacks and Whites would have to sit next to each other - a simple yet revolutionary act. Black students empathized with the cruelty these scholars had endured in Europe and trusted them more than other Whites. In fact, often Black students - as well as members of the Southern White community - saw these refugees as "some kind of colored folk."Source - PBS website From Swastika to Jim Crow The American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, and Anti-Defamation League became active in promoting civil rights.
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Old 03-21-2008, 03:45 PM   #103
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Dex, I'm trying to understand your pov - are you saying that just because someone is a civil rights activist that they don't have any stereotypes or prejudices (that we are all inundated with?).

I disagree with you then. As someone who has worked on these issues and with people both minority and not - everyone has something internalized. That's it - it doesn't make you a bigot - it's just a reality and one finally being discussed on a national platform. Instead of people refusing to accept the possibility and explore what you find in your mind/heart - we need to talk - and LISTEN - to each other so we can understand where the anger, frustration and sometimes ignorance comes from so that we can move on.

If everyone is sitting in their corner pissed at the other for not acknowledging your pain/frustration - or afraid of being called a racist, then we are where we have been for too long.

I've also seen minorities who believe they are not ignorant because they understand and have often experienced discrimination and/or unequal treatment - yet go on to espouse something stereotypical of a group outside of their experience (for example if they are ethnic minority, may still harbor negative feelings about another ethnic group, or women, or lgbt etc).

I've also had the experience of being exceedingly frustrated with folks in the black community because some members refuse to talk or listen to others outside of their experience, or harbor ignorant feelings about my ethnic group and/or gender. But instead of being pissed off at them, I listen and find a way to work together because in the end we have to make progress.

The difference to me - is whether or not people are willing to search their own heart and to listen to each other - then we all learn and grow - build friendships and families and the world is a better place (cue it's a small world music here).

some people dig in their heels - some open their minds...
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Old 03-21-2008, 04:50 PM   #104
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Dex, I'm trying to understand your pov - are you saying that just because someone is a civil rights activist that they don't have any stereotypes or prejudices (that we are all inundated with?).
No, I'm not saying that.
If I begin with the premise that we are all inundated with stereotypes or prejudices; I do not assume that the individual will accept, internalized them and incorporate them into their lives.

Is it possible that some people do accept etc... yes - everybody ... no.
Does the color of the people who do accept etc.. matter... no.

My concern about the senator is just what is derived from your previous post and the current one. That is; that due to his 20 year association with the pastor he has a distorted view of history and others. You might rightly as why then do I think the senator accepted, internalized them and incorporated them into his life? My other posts state that - basically his decisions and actions.
+++++++++++++++
I think the senator will get the democratic nomination and will win the general election.

Do I think my comments have much affect on those who have closed their minds (as you say) about the senator - no.

But maybe it is good to remember history and those who sacrificed. That is why I felt strongly to denounce you comments about everyone holding the views you described. If people don't speak up that distorted view of history will become fact in the mind of some. Others might forget but I will not.

+++
Let me know if I didn't answer a question you had.
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Old 03-21-2008, 04:59 PM   #105
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There are other examples that you can reseach.

These people helped to build; supported and risked their lives. To taint their sacrifice with what you describe is wrong - no other word for it. I don't make such a comment lightly. But not to stand up and say you are wrong is dishonor the memory of those who came before and those who are now working for equality - white, black or whatever.

American Civil Rights Movement (1896–1954) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The American Jewish community and the civil rights movement

Many from the American Jewish community tacitly or actively supported the civil rights movement. Several of the co-founders of the NAACP were Jewish. Many of its white members and leading activists came from within the Jewish community. The great majority of American Jews who were active in promoting civil rights were secular Jews, Reform Jews and Conservative Jews, especially during the later years.
Jewish philanthropists actively supported the NAACP and various civil rights group, and schools for African-Americans. The Jewish philanthropist Julius Rosenwald funded the creation of dozens of primary schools, secondary schools and colleges for disenfranchised black youth. He created a fund which provided seed money for building 5,000 schools for black Americans, mostly in the rural South. What is most remarkable is that black communities essentially taxed themselves twice to pay for such schools, which required community matching funds. Often blacks comprised most of the residents. Public funds were committed for the schools, and they raised additional funds by community events, and sometimes by members' getting second mortgages on their homes. At one time some forty percent of rural southern blacks were learning at Rosenwald elementary schools.
Rosenwald also contributed to historically black colleges such as Howard, Dillard and Fisk universities.
The PBS television show From Swastika to Jim Crow discussed Jewish involvement in the civil rights movement. It demonstrated that Jewish survivors of the Holocaust came to teach at many Southern schools, where they reached out to black students
Thus, in the 1930s and '40s when Jewish refugee professors arrived at Southern Black Colleges, there was a history of overt empathy between Blacks and Jews, and the possibility of truly effective collaboration. Professor Ernst Borinski organized dinners at which Blacks and Whites would have to sit next to each other - a simple yet revolutionary act. Black students empathized with the cruelty these scholars had endured in Europe and trusted them more than other Whites. In fact, often Black students - as well as members of the Southern White community - saw these refugees as "some kind of colored folk."Source - PBS website From Swastika to Jim Crow The American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, and Anti-Defamation League became active in promoting civil rights.
How is this relevant to the discussion? Has someone tarnished the contributions of participants in the civil rights movement? Has anti-semitic remarks been made by Reverend Wright? Or are we saying that Jewish participants in the civil rights movement were not affected by bigotry or racism that affected virtually everyone growing up in our society during that time? Let's not stop with Jewish participants -- let's bring in the Quakers with their strong civil rights traditions dating back to the founding of this country.

I think we aim to have a colorblind society, but colorblindness is illusory and adherence to this principle sometimes obscures our vision.

Everyone has blemishes and warts -- even Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. King, had some incredibly well-known blemishes and warts. We don't require our leaders to be saints.
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:23 PM   #106
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Dex, I think my assumption is (and where we differ) not that people accept these ideas consciously - but because these conversations have not been had enough in a public way - that all of this results in all of us having some sort of ideas that are skewed by the negative ideas - or perpetuated because we're all talking amongst ourselves...

Given that - I do not think that means (and I think what Obama was trying to say by including his granny)- that people who express these ideas should be villified - but it is more a fact of the matter that we have these ideas and we should learn how to address them. Also - from my experience and included in Obama's speech - because of the separation of different communities that sometimes these ideas are validated by ourselves internally and we don't have opportunities to see where we differ and why we hold different views of history and the present.

Also, to your point on whether his 20 year affiliation means that Barack must espouse the same ideas - I think that the affiliation with the church gave him both a faith that he draws from and an understanding of where people are at in terms of feelings (pain, frustration, hope, faith) - however - that he built his vision from ALL of his experiences - being biracial, living abroad in an asian country, going to elite universities etc. We can sit and analyze his time at Harvard and say - well, now he has no idea what a working class person from Detroit is feeling - based on that too. He took from the best of all the experiences and learned from the bad parts too...
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:27 PM   #107
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Well, since I'm a "typical white person" - I guess I'll have to cast a "typical white vote" - just as all the "typical black persons" have been & will be casting "typical black votes" (what was it? 92% in Mississippi)

Thanks Barak for unifying all of us.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:01 PM   #108
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ClifP - So you are assuming these "horrible" things happened to Rev Wright -

While I would agree some of the things you mentioned were "wrong" I would have to say the use of the word "horrible" is a bit of an exageration.
I guess we will agree to disagree. The treatment of African American after emancipation until civil rights movement ranged from bad to horrible, same thing I'd say applied to blacks in South Africa.

Clearly context is important and in the long and ugly history of mans inhumanity to man, the treatment of black in the US isn't in the same league as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Pol Pot, communist, Burma.....

.
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Times have changed - perhaps sometime in the past 20 years Mr. Obama should have used some of his considerable speaking skills to bring Mr. Wright up to date in their apparently many heart-to-heart conversations together - instead of making excuses for him.

.
I completely agree with you about that. Like Mike Huckabee I am willing to cut Reverend Wright a little slack, but not Senator Obama. In fact I am going to start a new thread on this.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:17 PM   #109
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.


I completely agree with you about that. Like Mike Huckabee I am willing to cut Reverend Wright a little slack, but not Senator Obama. In fact I am going to start a new thread on this.

You know listening and watching the wright reverend Wright he sure is entertaining! He speaks with authority, is charismatic and well states what men of his era have been saying for a long time. the problem is that Obama needs men of another color from the same era, guys like my 78 YO father who well, quite frankly are now disgusted with what obama stands for in their eyes.

Big mistake Mr Obama, he might still get the nomination, but he will only get the black and 15% far left vote in the country. He will lose in a landslide to McCain.
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:18 PM   #110
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guys like my 78 YO father who well, quite frankly are now disgusted with what obama stands for in their eyes.

Big mistake Mr Obama, he might still get the nomination, but he will only get the black and 15% far left vote in the country. He will lose in a landslide to McCain.
But he denounced those ideas and has never personally perpetuated them- i'm assuming your dad and others wanted stronger action?

Also, I must say it seems many of us have underestimated our own country with this whole campaign - perhaps America is ready and willing to engage in this debate - heck - obama winning iowa was a shock to me and liberal friends - so newguy - if obama wins the general election, will you eat your words - or your boxers (we'll need pix)?
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:37 PM   #111
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But he denounced those ideas and has never personally perpetuated them- i'm assuming your dad and others wanted stronger action?
As a US Senator, State Senator, law school lecturer, community organizer (whatever that is), activist, His mere presence in the congregation, and sucessful person "of color" in general - his mere long-time presence at this church & close personal association with Rev. Wright helps perpetuate these kind of ideas in the black community.

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Also, I must say it seems many of us have underestimated our own country with this whole campaign - perhaps America is ready and willing to engage in this debate - heck - obama winning iowa was a shock to me and liberal friends - so newguy - if obama wins the general election, will you eat your words - or your boxers (we'll need pix)?
I will not be surprised if Obama wins the nomination & maybe even the general election (but not with the help of my vote)
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:24 AM   #112
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Here's some interesting from recent PA polling data - wow, the Dems sure are polarized re: Hillary v Obama -

"If Obama does, in fact, win the nomination, just 57% of Clinton voters say they are even somewhat likely to vote for him against John McCain."

"If Clinton is the nominee, just 64% of Obama voters say they are at least somewhat likely to vote for her against McCain."

Pennsylvania: Clinton 51% Obama 38% - Yahoo! News
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Old 03-22-2008, 02:11 AM   #113
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I like to believe this but I think it maybe a temporary situation. For instance, the anti-McCain sentiment among the talk show folks was pretty strong during the campaign, including supporting Hillary.

I don't know or care what Ann Coulter is going to do in the fall, but I believe both Rush and Mark Levin are bashing Hillbama a lot and even saying some positive things about McCain.

On the other hand if Hillary gets really dirty anything is possible.
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:43 AM   #114
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White Americans really have no idea what is going on in the black inner cities. I spent almost 30 years living and working with some wonderful people in an east coast inner city. The rantings of Reverend Wright were and are almost mainstream!! From some of the highest levels of political leaders of a few cities I have listened to this information! I remember heading home one evening in the early 90s and telling my wife the story of this group of people I worked with telling me about how the govmint is bringing drugs into their black community how AIDS was a disease to kill off the blacks and my head was spinning from the odd thoughts my co workers actually were stating!!

So when I here people going off their meds from the YouTube of the Reverend I get a chuckle.

Anyway the Obama mystic has never come over me. Yes I listened to his 2004 speech at the convention. I was not impressed. again If he is the best america has to be president well ....Look what inexperience has done the past 7 years...
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:51 AM   #115
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White Americans really have no idea what is going on in the black inner cities. ..............
Oh yes they do -

that's why they stay away - except maybe for work or to dine or dance in the safe zone of downtown entertainment districts.

They know there are more than a few people (though not all) who live there that hate them and may harm them because they have white skin.
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Old 03-22-2008, 11:14 AM   #116
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Oh yes they do -

that's why they stay away - except maybe for work or to dine or dance in the safe zone of downtown entertainment districts.

They know there are more than a few people (though not all) who live there that hate them and may harm them because they have white skin.

WOW ok, who's spewing generalizations now!
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Old 03-22-2008, 11:55 AM   #117
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[quote=bright eyed;632170]Dex, I think my assumption is (and where we differ) not that people accept these ideas consciously - but because these conversations have not been had enough in a public way - that all of this results in all of us having some sort of ideas that are skewed by the negative ideas - or perpetuated because we're all talking amongst ourselves...
[quote]

I truly do not understand you principle or philosophical point.

If you could state it as an sociological hypothosis it might be helpful.

For example, take your premise that we are all inundated with stereotypes or prejudices and how does that affect the individual; groups of individuals and the society in which they live.
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:16 PM   #118
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Oh yes they do -

that's why they stay away - except maybe for work or to dine or dance in the safe zone of downtown entertainment districts.

They know there are more than a few people (though not all) who live there that hate them and may harm them because they have white skin.
What da?? Huh? Again I worked lived in a black neighborhood for many years , I never felt threatened. Again if you listened to the reverend he makes some very interesting points to black americans, and if you listen real good even white people can learn a bit from the sermon.
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Old 03-22-2008, 03:03 PM   #119
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[quote=dex;632431][quote=bright eyed;632170]Dex, I think my assumption is (and where we differ) not that people accept these ideas consciously - but because these conversations have not been had enough in a public way - that all of this results in all of us having some sort of ideas that are skewed by the negative ideas - or perpetuated because we're all talking amongst ourselves...
Quote:

I truly do not understand you principle or philosophical point.

If you could state it as an sociological hypothosis it might be helpful.

For example, take your premise that we are all inundated with stereotypes or prejudices and how does that affect the individual; groups of individuals and the society in which they live.
Ok, I'll give it a try

What I'm saying is that all of us - you - me - everyone - are inundated. So even if we consciously reject these notions - because we "see" them subconsciously as well - that we can't help but perhaps feel uncomfortable in certain situations. This has been proven time and again and even black folks and other minorities harbor these feelings against their own community or others.

So what i'm saying is that if we believe that none of us is immune - it's not about whether one person is biased or not - we are all to an extent - but uncovering them so that we can untangle what we know (both consciously and unconsciously). I think someone linked that stereotype image test here before and most people whatever color show some bias. But it seems that many of the white commentators and white liberals who were previously supporting Obama - are now appalled and ready to point out his every flaw - partly because they feel accused of being biased.

As a group - because many people do not mix with folks outside of their community - let's say race here - often also includes class - that then these ideas or assumptions (which often feel harmless) are often reaffirmed and then perpetuated.

For example, my sister's husband is a white guy, family from midwest, blond, blue eyed. Goes toy shopping with my sister for my daughter - realized that 95% of the baby dolls were blond and blue eyed - he realized he had never ever thought of that before.

So - as most folks acknowledge - there are then stark differences in the ways that one community views the same experience - for example - the 4th of July, which Federick Douglas points out in this famous speech: Frederick Douglass speech which if he gave now may be considered unpatriotic etc.

Dex, at one point you said Obama's pov of history is distorted - Obama and others may view your pov of history as distorted - who is correct here?

Also - there is obviously considerably more sympathy among many black folks for Wright's sentiments - however wrong - because they know that at least some of what he said was true - even if exaggerated. While some whites and others may find it appalling - it is harder for those in the black community to condem him.

For example - while the AIDS as a tool of the govmt to get rid of blacks idea seems ridiculous - things like the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male (which only stopped in 1972 by the way) Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
make people a bit skeptical of government and susceptible to consider other conspiracy theories.

So - back to my original point - If/when people decide to open their hearts and minds to listen to a point of view different from their own - one that seems totally out of whack with what you know and believe - but LISTEN - with the intent of UNDERSTANDING - that there is a ton to be gained for all sides. Some of the extreme views from each side will at least be tempered. You can't judge or discount someone else's experience by comparing it to your own experiences because they are often so different.

There is an Old Testament prophecy of the "sins of the Fathers being visited upon the third and fourth generations" so it's not a new idea - and Obama is saying - let's move forward. But you can't move forward if one group is saying "get over it" and the other is saying "but you don't understand!" -and just like in a relationship - it's not really about who's right or wrong - but about each side feeling "heard"

This is not unlike some of the groups in the middle east or south africa and other contentious places where people from opposing communities decide to get together to learn and listen to each other.
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Old 03-22-2008, 03:55 PM   #120
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[quote=bright eyed;632492][quote=dex;632431]
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What I'm saying is that all of us - you - me - everyone - are inundated. So even if we consciously reject these notions - because we "see" them subconsciously as well - that we can't help but perhaps feel uncomfortable in certain situations.
____________
You had me after hello; no, no, the first sentence. We really do not disagree. I do not disagree with your points. We are just focusing on different aspects of the same story and the draw different conclutions from them.
First to your point above; I grew up in the Bronx, NYC and lived in and grew up with whites, black, portaricans, irish, germans, itilians, etc. I learned to live with everyone. I didn't see the extent of the issue you raised until leaving NYC. So the point you were raising didn't seem like such a major issue to me when you raised it - that is why it was lost on me at first.

Where we differ is how we view the senator's choices and associations with the pastor - all stated previously. I do not see the senator as the person that best represents the interest of the American citizen as a result of his choices. And due to his association with the pastor and hiring him on his presidential campaign I especially do not believe he is the right person to lead the discussions you suggest. The pastor's rhetoric is divisive (it would be a stretch to say it is OK on a local level) and the senator chose to stay with him for 20 years; not speak up about it; expose his children to it and hire the pastor on his campaign. In my opinion the race issue the senator raised in his speech was an attempt to distract attention from these issues. The issues of judgement, courage, leadership, unity, character and yes even love of your fellow man.
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