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Old 03-22-2008, 04:25 PM   #121
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Some speeches are crafted more to accurately express the speakerís mind Ė others are crafted more to influence the audience. I believe political speeches tend toward the latter type. I havenít heard anyone question Obamaís ability to influence an audience.

What if his mind were exactly as his worst detractors allege? Would a skilled and persuasive speaker with presidential ambitions say ďYes, you got me with this Wright thing. Deep inside I hold ideas that would definitely make you vote against me.Ē Or would he deliver a persuasive speech calculated to keep his ambitions on track?

Emperorís-new-clothism is very common in politics. But it seems particularly pronounced in some Obama support Iíve seen - the implicit notion that if you donít see how wonderful he or his speech or his comments about some issue are, then you must be lacking in the wonderful qualities possessed by those who do see it.

Best speech Iíve seen this week was Marlon Brando as Marc Antony addressing a throng of Romans at Ceasarís funeral Julius Caesar (1953) Brutus had just gotten them all massaged into one mindset by pressing the right rhetorical buttons and then along comes Marc Antony and gets them all riled up (and Brando played it really well) 180 degrees the other way.
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:43 PM   #122
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Aw, I think we're having a moment... ((hugs))

I've been thinking about your point, in terms of his choices... And I can't try to speak for obama... But I think that sometimes you make more progress engaging those you do not always agree with than separating yourself- and he did learn a lot of good things from him too. As a black politician it's important for him to have ties with the black community so I think that probably played a role in his connection to that church. He could have totally wimped out of this firestorm, but he took the challenge by the horns and said, allb right let's go there... That to me shows courage.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:08 PM   #123
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WOW ok, who's spewing generalizations now!
Well, that's just so "typical" of me

(I'm just trying on the clothes Obama's making for me)
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:43 AM   #124
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I follow the logic.

I have considered his comment. But boiling the man down to two words in the middle of a statement is a little overboard.

I would not give him a pass on the overall event. But it is a stretch to chalk him up as not being able to be trusted.

I am not worried about his feelings towards whites. I am a little concerned about social engineering and more taxes to support the new programs.

But. I am less worried about those programs than maintaining the political status quo.

The question is: which president do you want Hillary or Obama?
Which president do I want? Obama. Definitely NOT Hillary.

And certainly not McCain who refers to Asians as gooks. It's interesting that many in this thread are quick to fry the black man for saying the word "typical" and not a peep is said about the white candidate who makes a racist comment. Or is it that some are just looking for any excuse to fry the black man? Kind of seems that way to me.
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Old 03-23-2008, 03:38 AM   #125
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And certainly not McCain who refers to Asians as gooks. ...

You make a good point...

Of course every American Military man (of any race) during the Vietnam era referred to Vietnamese that way. Just like in World War II Germans were referred to as Kr@^ts. It is common to dehumanize the other side.

However, John McCain is not a racist. I doubt that you have hear McCain utter those words recently (last 25 or 30 years)


To me this race is about policy and direction. For Obama the whole Wright ordeal means 3 things to most people:
  1. To his Detractors - It is an opportunity to fan the flames and hopefully convince others he is a bad bet... overly critical
  2. To his Supporters - They readily overlook it and do not give it much credence... Ignore it without a critical look
  3. To the Uncommitted - It casts a bit of doubt that was not there 2 months ago... They are scratching their heads wondering if it is much ado about nothing or is there something to worry about.
Here are some concerns:
  • New taxes for many social engineering programs
  • Some have fears about his cabinet selection and appointees during his administration.
If this Rev Wright thing had not surfaced, who do you think Obama would have pick as his spiritual guide during his presidency? Most presidents use one to help them deal with all of the issues. That person has access and influence!

Now take the logic in the previous sentence and try to tell me that it may not apply to cabinet selection and other appointments.
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:19 AM   #126
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I actually heard a news reporter say that he thought that "Obama gave the country a gift today" referring to the speech. Thought that was amusing.
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Old 03-23-2008, 12:33 PM   #127
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Aw, I think we're having a moment... ((hugs))

I've been thinking about your point, in terms of his choices... And I can't try to speak for obama... But I think that sometimes you make more progress engaging those you do not always agree with than separating yourself- and he did learn a lot of good things from him too. As a black politician it's important for him to have ties with the black community so I think that probably played a role in his connection to that church. He could have totally wimped out of this firestorm, but he took the challenge by the horns and said, allb right let's go there... That to me shows courage.
I have a powerful urge to kiss you full on the mouth.

Not to ruin the moment but, what was his alternative? If he didn't address it wouldn't it remained a cloud over his campaign?
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:11 PM   #128
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I have a powerful urge to kiss you full on the mouth.

Not to ruin the moment but, what was his alternative? If he didn't address it wouldn't it remained a cloud over his campaign?


he could have denounced Wright as strongly as he did farakan, or taken a more simplified pov on race. but he didn't reduce the discussion down to soundbites - even though the media and pundits decided to glom onto a couple of phrases here or there - i think folks who listened to the whole thing with an open mind (and not to try and find something wrong) found it one of the more thoughtful speeches in our recent history. he chose nuance which is dangerous to do in a political campaign.
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Old 03-24-2008, 06:37 AM   #129
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There has been a lot of talk about how we are all "inundated" with stereotypes that effect our opinions. I don't want to pursue the Rev Wright discussion of what is understandable and what is loony but I do buy the premise that we make unconscious assumptions about others based on race, gender and other surface characteristics that we would rationally disagree with. If you have not tried it I recommend you take one or more of the Harvard University "Implicit" tests that measure these biases. By the way, the tests show that both whites and blacks have "implicit" biases against blacks. They have one on presidential candidates up there now - but I haven't taken it. Information about the tests is here.
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Old 03-24-2008, 07:33 AM   #130
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There has been a lot of talk about how we are all "inundated" with stereotypes that effect our opinions. I don't want to pursue the Rev Wright discussion of what is understandable and what is loony but I do buy the premise that we make unconscious assumptions about others based on race, gender and other surface characteristics that we would rationally disagree with. If you have not tried it I recommend you take one or more of the Harvard University "Implicit" tests that measure these biases. By the way, the tests show that both whites and blacks have "implicit" biases against blacks. They have one on presidential candidates up there now - but I haven't taken it. Information about the tests is here.
In an age of better racial enlightment and sensitivity, perhaps all of us in our generation "flunk" the Implicit Association Test. This does say something about how racial bias might permeate our thought process, whether unconscious or conscious. There is a good discussion of this test in a new book written by Stanford Law Professor Richard Thompson, Playing the Racing Card, which I highly recommend reading for those who are interested in how the race card is played for some of the contemporary racial issues of our times. Here's a review of the book from the NY Times. The Race Card - Richard Thompson Ford - Book Review - New York Times
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Old 03-25-2008, 07:54 PM   #131
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Great Speech by Mr. Obama I sincerely hope that this will open all of our eyes and hearts to the problems that remain under the covers as it pertains to race relations in our nation.

As for the issue with Pastor Wright I am sure that the sound bites from his sermons used by the news media and by those who wish to bring Mr. Obama down were taken out of context. Let's listen to the whole sermon before we past judgement on Pastor Wright and Mr. Obama.

By delivering a speech on race at time when his bid for the presidency was at stake and at a time when some might not want to hear it - Mr. Obama showed LEADERSHIP.

GOD BLESS US ALL
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