Obama Speech on Race

[Rustic23]

TAl,
I am not sure the pastor thing is a non-issue. We are educated in several ways. For a lot of us, schools, religious establishments, and life in general make up the bulk of our education and impact who we are and how we think. As Obama has been a member of this church for 20 years, what this church was teaching becomes an issue, because it is so far out of the main stream. If it were not, he would have never made the speach.

 

[laurence]

You are equating a statement about Harry Potter with the racists ones such as whites developed aids to kill blacks?

Before you ask others for something maybe you should make the case that the statements the pastor made are not that bad and the senator was wrong to denounced them. How about it?

Specifically that Wiccans/Pagans = devil worshipers and perpetuating a myth that led to the burning of thousands at the stake for heresy, but I did not extrapolate on that.

As for as your second point....why? If someone says to you "why do you like peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches?" do you say, "why do you like ham on rye?"

I never said I didn't think the comments the pastor made were no big deal, my point is we all have people close to us or in our lives that if we ran for office the media could jump all over and make a big deal about. The tone of your posts come across as a prosecuting attorney rather than a member of the jury, so I was asking if there was anyone who was genuinely turned from pro to anti-Obama by this "event". If we had to qualify every question with a lengthy oratory we'd never get anywhere!

 

[FinallyRetired]

As Obama has been a member of this church for 20 years, what this church was teaching becomes an issue, because it is so far out of the main stream. If it were not, he would have never made the speach.

I don't know about that -- we only have a few cherry-picked clips under a minute. Hard to conclude that's what the church was teaching for 20 years. If it was, I would agree with you, but it might also be the preacher had a bad day, he was angry about something and projected it in his sermon, etc. Not saying he did, just saying we don't know. Obama claims he wasn't there when those particular sermons were given and if he had he would have strongly objected.

Here's a link to the church's ministries. This looks like a very social-based church to me, nothing radical in any of these ministries.

Trinity United Church of Christ

I don't know if I would vote for Obama -- but if I do (or don't) it will be on the basis of his positions on the real issues facing this country - the economy, defense, health care, etc, and not on some cherry picked you tube video.

 

[dex]

I don't know about that -- we only have a few cherry-picked clips under a minute. Hard to conclude that's what the church was teaching for 20 years. If it was, I would agree with you, but it might also be the preacher had a bad day, he was angry about something and projected it in his sermon, etc. Not saying he did, just saying we don't know. Obama claims he wasn't there when those particular sermons were given and if he had he would have strongly objected.

Here's a link to the church's ministries. This looks like a very social-based church to me, nothing radical in any of these ministries.

Trinity United Church of Christ

I don't know if I would vote for Obama -- but if I do (or don't) it will be on the basis of his positions on the real issues facing this country - the economy, defense, health care, etc, and not on some cherry picked you tube video.

You might want to follow these links
Trinity United Church of Christ

The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology that started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone’s book, Black Power and Black Theology.

James Hal Cone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
read the whole entry but here is some of it

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love

 

[Rivrider]

I would love to believe that the racism of our past is behind us. Most of us now reject beliefs that were once common. Groups like the Klan are now mostly isolated fringe. But, I know from personal experience that it is not completely gone. I have heard people say things that make me cringe. Will admit I didn't call them on it.

It hasn't been that many years since David Duke made a serious run at being governor of Louisiana. Since I used to live there it was sad for me to see that. Also, had a co-worker there whom I suspect may have been a klan member. Within the past year, the klan has distributed leaflets in my neighborhood(I threw mine in the trash where it belonged).

So, while the anger that Pastor Wright showed, while uncomfortable and not helpful, is in many ways understandable.

Wish I knew how we could move forward to heal these wounds, but afraid I don't.

 

[FinallyRetired]

You might want to follow these links
Trinity United Church of Christ

The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology that started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone’s book, Black Power and Black Theology.

James Hal Cone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
read the whole entry but here is some of it

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love

Well, look, not being black, I can't speak to black theology. But if it's linked to liberation theology, I'm Catholic and there are some Jesuit liberation theologians who would make this Preacher Wright look like a pacifist in comparison. Doesn't mean because I'm Catholic, or have attended Jesuit churches I believe in most of that crap.

I note from the link you posted the following:

. To have a church whose theological perspective starts from the vantage point of Black liberation theology being its center, is not to say that African or African American people are superior to any one else. • African-centered thought, unlike Eurocentrism, does not assume superiority and look at everyone else as being inferior.
• There is more than one center from which to view the world. In the words of Dr. Janice Hale, “Difference does not mean deficience.” It is from this vantage point that Black liberation theology speaks.

Sounds to me like they are trying to instill equality in the minds of their black congregation members, not superiority. The superiority gospel was left with the Black Panthers in the 60s.

Anyway, as I said, I'm not going to decide who to vote for on the basis of some preacher whose church I don't attend, or on a short video where that preacher spewed racist comments. I wouldn't go to that church, but I take Obama at his words in the same way I take McCain on his words about that anti catholic preacher he's been associated with.

In short, this election is to important to be left to religious innuendo.

 

[Rustic23]

I don't know about that -- we only have a few cherry-picked clips under a minute. Hard to conclude that's what the church was teaching for 20 years.

The reason we have those 'cherry-picked clips' is the church was selling the DVD on line. So they are clips the church/reverend picked.

 

[donheff]

Well, look, not being black, I can't speak to black theology. But if it's linked to liberation theology, I'm Catholic and there are some Jesuit liberation theologians who would make this Preacher Wright look like a pacifist in comparison. Doesn't mean because I'm Catholic, or have attended Jesuit churches I believe in most of that crap.

I was going to raise the same point. Some of the Jesuits in Central America were pretty extreme. A good friend of the family is a Jesuit who was stationed in Central America and South Africa for many years. He tosses out some opinions that will curl your hair. Sometimes they are simply intended to curl your hair and get the thoughts flowing.

 

[FinallyRetired]

The reason we have those 'cherry-picked clips' is the church was selling the DVD on line. So they are clips the church/reverend picked.

Maybe we should get the DVD and see what else is on there. A DVD can hold hours and hours of stuff. If it's all filled with hate and venom, that's one thing, but if it's 3 hours of social gospel and 1 minute of saying something that's inexcusable, that's another thing. Do you think it's suspicious that someone got this DVD, cut out a minute that would raise racial issues, and put it on youtube to be played and replayed over and over again?

Maybe we should also get Jerry Falwell's videos or a John Hagee video, whose endorsement McCain accepted (“Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews.").

Bottom line, the videos that surfaced were enough for me to want to hear what Obama had to say. I heard what he had to say, I'm satisfied, and I'm ready to move on to the economy, defense, and health care. As I said, I don't know if I'm going to vote for the man, but if this election, this year, is decided on racial matters in the US, we will have taken a huge step back, my friends.

 

[dex]

Well, look, not being black, I can't speak to black theology. But if it's linked to liberation theology, I'm Catholic and there are some Jesuit liberation theologians who would make this Preacher Wright look like a pacifist in comparison. Doesn't mean because I'm Catholic, or have attended Jesuit churches I believe in most of that crap.

I do not believe the color of your skin precludes you from commenting on the theology of the senator's church.

Nor do I think that finding wrongs in other religions justifies the wrongs expressed by the pastor.

We can always find an equal or greater wrong to justify a wrong postion. If we do that we can never advance as a people we can only be as good as the level of least wrong we can find.

 

[eridanus]

As for as your second point....why? If someone says to you "why do you like peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches?" do you say, "why do you like ham on rye?"

Looks like a fallacious argument to me.

 

[FinallyRetired]

I do not believe the color of your skin precludes you from commenting on the theology of the senator's church.

Nor do I think that finding wrongs in other religions justifies the wrongs expressed by the pastor.

We can always find an equal or greater wrong to justify a wrong postion. If we do that we can never advance as a people we can only be as good as the level of least wrong we can find.

That's fair, I agree with all the above. I do find fault in the small bit of theology I''ve seen from that church, and the minute or so of pronouncements I've seen from the preacher. I would not join that church, nor would I support the preacher if he was running for office.

The real issue, however, is how much that rubs off on one of its members. Not being a member myself, the only way I have to judge that is to hear the member speak on the subject. That member states he was not there when those comments were made, and rejects the comments. That's good enough for me, although he did exhibit bad judgment in not coming out earlier.

I'm not the most faithful member of my church, but I bet if someone went through their theological pronouncements they may find something that I strongly disagree with.

Anyway, I do understand your position as well, but don't consider theology important enough to tip my vote. Not when we're on the brink of a financial breakdown, are in a military quagmire, are losing jobs to outsourcing, are being inundated with illegals, and have tens of millions without health care. I don't know if Obama is the guy to fix all of that, or if anyone can, but a person's religous beliefs, or those of his/her pastor, would be about number 117 in my list of important things.

 

[Letj]

YouTube - Mike Huckabee on Barack Obama's Speech on Race

Some people just deserve a lot of credit for their courage especially when they speak from the heart. I hope other conservatives are courageous enough.

 

[Texarkandy]

I curious how many southern born presidents attended services in southern churches during the heyday of segregation, and heard the preacher go on about negroes being kept in their place. Using the bible to justify slavery and Jim Crow. So much for selective rage.

Excuse my being astounded, but what in the world does that have to do with the subject of this thread & the current (year 2008 ) controversy re: Senator/Presidential Candidate Obama & his racist buddy/confidant/advisor/mentor of 20 years (& very public & political person) Jeremiah Wright? (whom Obama by his own personal admission privately & direcly consulted with on the eve of deciding to run for president)

If you commit a murder & your defense attorney points out to the jury that others have committed murders in the past & got away with it - should the jury acquit you?

 

[laurence]

Looks like a fallacious argument to me.

A List Of Fallacious Arguments

Which one? Above is supplied a list. I was merely responding to the posters comment that I should apply a defense for another person's action before I ask questions, which makes no sense to me.

 

[zoey]

I think it was an amazing speech. I'm white and my family is multi-racial. Growing up in a white world, in a very sheltered world, I didn't witness much racism. Not until I married and started raising a family did I learn about the hate in the hearts of some people.

I thought that Obama's speech was truthful and real. I didn't find it PC and full of sound bites.

Why I support Obama is that I think if anyone is going to fight special interest groups it's him. If anyone is going to help the poor of all races, it's him. If anyone is going to help the middle class it's him. If anyone is going to put a stop to Bush's war, it's Obama.

 

[outtarentals]

YouTube - Mike Huckabee on Barack Obama's Speech on Race

Thank you for posting this - I am sorry so many of the candidates were eliminated so early in the game before we had a chance to really get to know them and their positions.

Obama has been a blank slate and has been given a pass by most of the media - but now the blanks are being filled in and we are getting to know the man. If we leave race out of this - what does he stand for??

As far as I can tell, all we really know about him is that he will raise taxes on the "rich" to help the "poor" and he said he'd almost immediately start to pull the troops out of Iraq - which initially seemed to garner him most of his supporters - but lately he seems to be backing away from that. Also he has a proposal for health care insurance for everyone -but words are cheap & I'd like a lot more details about that.... Unfortunately, it may already be too late to do anything about him even if he is found to be wanting. As in the past several elections - I fear we will be stuck with voting for the lesser of two evils.

I am amazed and frightened that so many seem to believe everything he says and are so enamored of him - it seems to be like a cult. I just don't think we know nearly enough about this man to follow him so blindly.

 

[FinallyRetired]

Maybe we should also get Jerry Falwell's videos or a John Hagee video, whose endorsement McCain accepted (“Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews.").

Oops, maybe I should call Godwin's Law on myself. Maybe the OP should close this thread.

 

[dex]

Anyway, I do understand your position as well, but don't consider theology important enough to tip my vote. Not when we're on the brink of a financial breakdown, are in a military quagmire, are losing jobs to outsourcing, are being inundated with illegals, and have tens of millions without health care. I don't know if Obama is the guy to fix all of that, or if anyone can, but a person's religous beliefs, or those of his/her pastor, would be about number 117 in my list of important things.

I appreciate your point of view. And I also appreciate that you took the time to give what you point of view is along with the why you hold that view.

I often find the "why" of a person's opinion more interesting and telling then the actual opinion. The thought process an what information we focus upon is very interesting.

In many issues I attempt to be objective about the discussion about it. My point of view on a subject is not who I am so I do not take the discussion personally if someone points out flaws in my thought process - I appreciate it.

 

[Coach]

YouTube - Mike Huckabee on Barack Obama's Speech on Race

Some people just deserve a lot of credit for their courage especially when they speak from the heart. I hope other conservatives are courageous enough.

I thought Huckabee made important points in this interview, I found his comments thoughtful and compassionate.

Coach

 

[HFWR]

To expand on Mr. Huckabee's point with anecdotal evidence...

I've lived in rural Indiana, Atlanta, and DFW, and whether rural, suburban, or urban, there are still many, many people with an often uncharacterisitic "mean streak" when it comes to other races, religions, and ethnicities.

Back in the late 70s, I was out back of a bar, while the band was on break, getting some "fresh air" . While passing around the "fresh air", during the conversation I mentioned that I knew a local musician, who happened to not be Causcasian.

The guy next to me grabbed my shirt, damn near tearing it off, then proceeded to call me a n-word lover. Man, shades of skinhead. After managing to avoid getting my a$$ kicked, I hightailed it out of there.

I have other, equally scary, accounts...

 

[JB]

Obama has been a blank slate and has been given a pass by most of the media - but now the blanks are being filled in and we are getting to know the man. If we leave race out of this - what does he stand for??

As far as I can tell, all we really know about him is that he will raise taxes on the "rich" to help the "poor"

Hello Outtarentals. You're right about Obama being a 'blank slate'. But on taxes Obama's position is to adjust Bush's tax cuts to give more relief to the middle class. Obama's position was shared by McCain back in 2001.

"I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who need tax relief."--John McCain, May 2001

 

[ziggy29]

I thought Huckabee made important points in this interview, I found his comments thoughtful and compassionate.

Agreed. IMO, we can't really solve the issues of race unless people can openly and freely discuss their perspectives and experiences without immediately being brandished as racist.

I suspect many folks (if not most) may have had some negative experiences with, or negative stereotypes about, folks of other races. Maybe it came from an incident in their life. Maybe it came "by osmosis" from older generations in their family passing it down. And even though I think the majority of us don't act on those preconceived notions and even though many of us aren't proud of holding these feelings, they are very real. And the sooner we can admit them without being made to feel like the scum of the earth, the sooner we can really have an engaging and substantive discussion about race in America.

Just about anyone who says they have *never* had their opinions of anyone influenced by their race is probably lying. We can't expect each other to be perfect, but we need to at least accept that most people mean well and that the more we can work through our flaws, the more we can get, well...past the past.

 

[outtarentals]

Hello Outtarentals. You're right about Obama being a 'blank slate'. But on taxes Obama's position is to adjust Bush's tax cuts to give more relief to the middle class. Obama's position was shared by McCain back in 2001.

"I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who need tax relief."--John McCain, May 2001

Better be careful for what you wish - as early retirees, many of us on this forum would be considered "rich".

 

[samclem]

There are black bigots and white bigots--intolerance and prejudice is not restricted to one side or the other along racial lines. The biggest difference in attitudes is not between blacks and whites, but between older folks and younger ones. In general, race just is not that big of an issue with younger people. When you hear someone speaking in ways that "make you cringe", it is far more likely (in my experience) to be an older person. Because I'm white, most of the people who would say things like this in my presence are also white, and they are almost without exception older than 50. If Obama is right, the situation is much the same in the "black community."

So, as long as we keep our guard up and don't backslide into a new cycle of fingerpointing, this problem will (in large part) solve itself in a few decades.

In addition to the difference in tolerance between older and younger folks, I think there's also difference according to economic status. Poorer people (black and white) are (again, in my expereince) more likely to hold intolerant views. This is also good news--these people have less ability to have a negative influence on larger events.

Not that all old or poor people are intolerant--far from it. But a disproportionate number are.