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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-09-2007, 07:28 PM   #41
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by bosco
Aside from the bogus non-recount, aren't you forgetting that Jeb Bush used state police to block roads, had polling places moved without notice, people prevented from casting ballots, a Texas firm incorrectly and illegally removed peoples' names from voting registrations (nearly all black people and dems, by some strange coincidence)? It took a lot more for the Repubs to win Florida than even the US Supreme court.

There's also some serious questions about the integrity of the 2004 election.
I am not a Bush supporter. I'll be glad when he's gone from the office. I just live in hope we won't get something worse. He's doing the job.

I now know you are in the "people who are clueless, hate Bush more than anything and is firmly committed to ignoring any shred of truth" camp. You never know where the conspiracy will end. Bush was in Texas when Kennedy was assasinated. Could he have been on the "grassy knoll?" If there was a real conspiracy in Florida, I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court would have had something to say more favorable to your position. You are living in a dream world, filled with hatred and all I can say is get a life.

If you want to talk about questionable elections, let's go with the Kennedy-Nixon fix in Chicago. The evidence is a lot stronger than the rumors spread by anti-Bush hacks. Nixon was a jerk but had more integrity than Gore in not dragging it through the courts. We could discuss Hayes who clearly got the presidency by political affiliation of the commission appointed to investigate the 1876 Florida election. There have been many "challenged" presidential elections but never the continuing hatred that Bush has been subjected to.

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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-09-2007, 08:13 PM   #42
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by 2B
If you want to talk about questionable elections, let's go with the Kennedy-Nixon fix in Chicago.
That's out of line 2B. Stealing elections in Chicago is a rich, long-time tradition built on the backs of partronage workers, labor unions, immigrants and the religious faithful. When Bush and those nasty Republicans do it, it's, it's, it's just plain old stealing and wrong! We do it with a sense of history, pride and tradition............. because it's the CHICAGO WAY!!

It's not easy these days. The massive "reverse flight" moving blue collar eithnics to the suburbs and white collar snobs into the newly renovated, hip areas of the city makes it tougher to get things organized. And the struggles of the Chicago Archdiocese isn't helping either.

So, cut us some slack! We deliver the vote for the Dems day-in and day-out, good candidate or crappy candidate, right or wrong and without regard to platform. And the best part? People love us for it!
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-09-2007, 08:18 PM   #43
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Re: Obamarama

Hey guys and gals, can we call a truce on this subject for a little while? Why don't we debate the Civil War or something else equally as useful.

Only 21 months to go before the next presidential election. :P


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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-09-2007, 08:29 PM   #44
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Re: Obamarama

Whatdaya wanna bet that the Honorable Richard M Daley "Hisssssssss Honor" could get Bagdad organized into wards and precincts, party loyalists identified and trained and deliver the vote for the 2008 Dem presidential candidate......... if we'd let him get started today?

I can see it now........ On a sign seen as you leave the Bagdad airport.....

"Bagdad, the City That Works! Richard M Daley, Major."

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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-09-2007, 11:02 PM   #45
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by Greg
I told the Mrs. about a month ago that what I'd really like to see is Obama run for Vice President.
"Vote for me, I wanna be #2!!"

How American is that?

No, he's supposed to run as hard as he can for #1, and then subordinate his ego to compromise for #2. So the results may be the same.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-09-2007, 11:11 PM   #46
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Actually Bush lost the 2000 Election.


Really! - Both the Popular Vote and the Vote in Florida! - If they just would have counted them all correctly and the GOP appointed supreme court would not have stopped the counting. This is a fact and has been proven many times over.
wow! you better go notify the Supreme Court. :
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-10-2007, 07:48 AM   #47
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Re: Obamarama

I find it rather interesting the Dems complain about the counties on the east coast of Florida violating civil rights and making it harder for people to vote in the 2000 elections. Hears a clue people those counties are run by the Dems. If they didn't like the way it was done they should change it not complain about something they have the ability to change. The point is the Dems screwed it up and blame the Bushes and the Supreme Court.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-10-2007, 08:06 AM   #48
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by Nords
"Vote for me, I wanna be #2!!"

How American is that?

No, he's supposed to run as hard as he can for #1, and then subordinate his ego to compromise for #2. So the results may be the same.
And maybe that's the problem . Maybe Merkins need to subordinate their egos just a bit, more 'world citizen' thinking and behavior. More "How can I help the country?" rather than ""How can I wn?" That would be different; that's still what I'm watching for
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-10-2007, 09:38 AM   #49
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
I find it rather interesting the Dems complain about the counties on the east coast of Florida violating civil rights and making it harder for people to vote in the 2000 elections. Hears a clue people those counties are run by the Dems. If they didn't like the way it was done they should change it not complain about something they have the ability to change. The point is the Dems screwed it up and blame the Bushes and the Supreme Court.
the State police are under the county's authority? The company from Texas that removed names from eligible voter's lists was under county jurisdiction? Katherine Harrris was a Demorcrat from those counties?

The thrust of your argument seems to be that it is the Dems fault that they were the victims of a crooked election, crooked government, and biased supreme court.

try again.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-10-2007, 11:06 AM   #50
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Re: Obamarama

The fact of the matter is that those Florida Dems didn't care enough to put forth an effort to win. It's really shameful. They don't have the time or inclination to get things organized, control the jobs, the economy, the votes, like they should. Yet they have lots of time to whine and cry afterwards. What's the matter with them?

The whole concept that you can have a major urban area not controlled by Dems just dazzles me. Too much energy spent whining and crying and too little effort spent controlling the votes.

Totally out of control.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-10-2007, 02:35 PM   #51
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
Hey guys and gals, can we call a truce on this subject for a little while? Why don't we debate the Civil War or something else equally as useful.

Only 21 months to go before the next presidential election. :P
hey rewahoo, sorry for contributing to the negativity- i had a tough day at work and started getting punchy
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-10-2007, 03:12 PM   #52
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by 2B
I am not a Bush supporter. I'll be glad when he's gone from the office. I just live in hope we won't get something worse. He's doing the job.
Well, I'm guessing you voted for the turkey! - Probably even twice!

- And yeah he's doing the job alright, if you consider running the U.S.A's financial and world status into the ditch 'doing the job'!
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-10-2007, 04:25 PM   #53
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Re: Obamarama

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Well, I'm guessing you voted for the turkey! - Probably even twice!

- And yeah he's doing the job alright, if you consider running the U.S.A's financial and world status into the ditch 'doing the job'!
In fact I voted for him four times, twice for president and twice for governor. Everytime it involved holding my nose.

In Texas the dems have been reduced to switching to the repub party to get elected. There are no dems in any statewide Texas elected office. We're now into the same problem Texas had when the dems had one party control of the state. We have the lib repubs and the conservative repubs. Our budget is out of control, our current governor amazes everyone and we've just about reached critical mass for another reversal.

Bush was a middle-to-fair governor but certainly nothing exciting. He did much I didn't agree with. The dems ran no name, nobody losers against him. I can't even remember who they were now. None of the governor elections were even close which is why he looked so strong as a repub presidential candidate.

In the presidency, Texas was going to vote for Bush so it didn't really matter who I voted for. The dems, however, picked poor candidates that I actually felt it was better to have the mediocre Bush II rather than them. With what I've seen of the world since both elections, I don't feel Gore or Kerry would be doing as well as Bush is despite Bush doing pretty poor. I see no need for specifics. But, I tend to focus more on what, how and why things were done and not judge solely on outcomes.

I think I've said all this before but maybe not at the same time.

I'll also repeat my Obama opinion. He is clearly articulate, personable and intelligent. He also has next to no experience. Where's the "gravitas" for him? If he was a white repub with 2 years of senate experience, he would be laughed at if he announced he was running for the presidency.

Madam Hillary is only modestly better. She's a 1 term senator with her only other experience being hatchet man for Bill. Where's the "she's only running because she was married to Bill" outcry that the Bush father-son evoked.

Edwards falls in between them. He is a one term senator that didn't even try to run for reelection in the senate because his poll numbers were so low. His contribution to the Kerry ticket was probably a negative in the southern states. Now if the dems really want to prove no repub can win in 2008, they need to nominate him.

The strongest qualified dem is Bill Richardson. He has the background to possibly be a good president. He doesn't have the poll numbers to be in contention and may never get them.

I can't see me voting for Edwards, Clinton or Obama. Richarson is a good "possible." Of course, the repubs still have their chance to pick someone so laughable that even Obama looks like the best qualified.

Personally, I am fiscally conservative and believe in less government. That carries over into government staying out of our personal lives so that generally makes me a social liberal. I keep looking for the government program that eventually doesn't cause more problems than it was supposed to fix but I have not found it.

For those unfamiliar with Texas politics, a big block of repub support is in the form of anti-abortion/big government types. That gets meaningless anti-abortion actions done in the Texas legislature and higher spending. Hence, I sense a dem-repub reversal coming so get ready for a big block of anti-abortion Texas dems flooding the national dem party.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-10-2007, 06:15 PM   #54
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by bosco
the State police are under the county's authority? The company from Texas that removed names from eligible voter's lists was under county jurisdiction? Katherine Harrris was a Demorcrat from those counties?

The thrust of your argument seems to be that it is the Dems fault that they were the victims of a crooked election, crooked government, and biased supreme court.

try again.
How's this the Dems were complaining that the butterfly ballot caused so many errors and was the reason the count was screwed up. Who decided to use the butterfly ballot? The county election commission, who happen to be Dems in the counties causing the problems. If it was so bad, they should not have used it. The Dems controlled the legislature AND the Mansion prior to Jeb. If state policy was so bad, then they should have changed it. They didn't try to change it so obviously they thought it was fine, as did Jeb, until the election of 2000.

As far as Katherine Harris, she was doing what state law required. If the Dems didn't like it they should have tried to change the law prior to the election not after, by using the courts. The Dems did control the state legislature, you know. As far as the rest, it sounds like typical politics. How about all of the military absentee votes, who typically vote Republican, that were thrown out, because they were mailed from a ship and didn't have a date stamped on them. If Bush wanted to be the dink that Gore was, he would have demanded a recount in the conservative counties to off set the recounts in the liberal ones. He rose above the B.S. and let Gore look like the cry baby he is.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-11-2007, 01:07 AM   #55
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by 2B
The dems ran no name, nobody losers against him. I can't even remember who they were now. None of the governor elections were even close which is why he looked so strong as a repub presidential candidate.
I have to agree with you on that one - there was a huge glut for several years with terrible candidates on both sides - dull dull dull - hey i'm from california where we had Gray Davis who got recalled in a heavily democrat state cuz he was so lame...

i think in part, that election reform is needed because in order to stomach or have the desire to be involved with running for public office you have to have certain ambitions that tend to over-ride your other ethics or priorities and a lot of good people do not find that worth their time.

whatever the case is - not enough will change with a president -that is one person (ok, with a lot of control/power) in a broken ship.

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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-11-2007, 05:53 AM   #56
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by bright eyed
I have to agree with you on that one - there was a huge glut for several years with terrible candidates on both sides - dull dull dull - hey i'm from california where we had Gray Davis who got recalled in a heavily democrat state cuz he was so lame...
California, from what I can tell, is seriously screwed up politically. That spills over into the finances which is where the wheels fall off first. I read an article not long ago that said last years state budget was "saved" by the Google IPO. All the new billionaires paid almost $400MM in state income tax on their big gains. From my w***king life I know they are putting high levels of regulation and taxes on industry and are wondering why they are leaving the state or reluctant to make new investments. The whole Enron fiasco was encouraged by California's deregulation which was designed to give Californians the absolute cheapest power. Unfortunately, people found the ways around the system and stole billions -- totally legal for the most part. So much for my rambling....

If Texas had the ability to recall, Perry would be toast. He's done some stunts since the election that have just made our collective jaws drop.

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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-11-2007, 10:47 AM   #57
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Re: Obamarama



This is on-topic--really. I watched the last 15 minutes of Tim Russert on MSNBC last nite. Interesting show. They had a Republican pollster, Frank Luntz, who recently wrote a book called Words that Work: It's not what you say, it's what people hear. He's the fellow that came up with the phrase "Death Tax."

I caught the last part where he was commenting on Democratic candidates for president. He thinks that Hillary and Obama are direct opposites, that Hillary is very planned and controlling and intellectual; Obama is more like Reagan : in that he tells wonderful, personal stories that folks can directly relate to. Luntz thinks that if Obama doesn't stumble too hard, too early, he may have a real chance.

Luntz had lots of interesting observations about voters, candidates, and politics. He said that Howard Dean fell not so much because he got caught shouting, but rather because he was a one note candidate, all he would talk about was the war. Luntz said that if he had gone to the New Hampshire primary in a doctor's smock and a stethoscope around his neck and talked about health care, he could have kept his momentum going. (Who would better understand than a doctor-president?).

Anyway, It appears that Tim Russert will air again tonite at 6PM ET (and maybe 1AM for you nite owls). To my mind, all political junkies should watch it.

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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-11-2007, 11:56 AM   #58
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by youbet
The fact of the matter is that those Florida Dems didn't care enough to put forth an effort to win. It's really shameful. They don't have the time or inclination to get things organized, control the jobs, the economy, the votes, like they should. Yet they have lots of time to whine and cry afterwards. What's the matter with them?

The whole concept that you can have a major urban area not controlled by Dems just dazzles me. Too much energy spent whining and crying and too little effort spent controlling the votes.

Totally out of control.
translation--if the Rebulicans cheat, it's the dems fault because they didn't try hard enough.

I never brought up butterfly ballots. I'm not even talking about the supposed recount effort (which was mostly pr). I'm taking about Jeb Bush using the state police as goon squads to deny voters, move polling places without notice, closing polling places etc., and fraudulent dirty tricks with the voter registration lists. All the hoopla about butterfly ballots was just the tip of the iceberg and mostly a smokescreen.

I'm as pissed off at the dems as anyone. I think a senator should have stepped up to the plate and signed the election challange. I think there should have been federal martials in Florida investigating irregularities in polling and complaints by blacks. I think people should have gone to jail. But the dems were too frightened to defend the voting rights of citizens, and politics won as usual.

If you want to defend this stuff, go right ahead. But don't turn around and say you believe in demorcacy. Just admit that cheating is ok (I guess you call it "controling the votes"), and the best cheater deserves to be in office.

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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-11-2007, 01:30 PM   #59
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Re: Obamarama

So lets make sure everyone who votes is entitled to vote. No picture id no vote, or better yet no proof of citizenship no vote. I get real tired of the yahoos in King County deciding what the rest of WA. State will do. seems in the '04 election they continued to recount and "find" votes until the results were what the Dems wanted. Everybody wants a fair election just that one party in this country wants everyone to vote legally or not, just vote and vote democrat.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-11-2007, 02:05 PM   #60
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by USK Coastie
So lets make sure everyone who votes is entitled to vote. No picture id no vote, or better yet no proof of citizenship no vote. I get real tired of the yahoos in King County deciding what the rest of WA. State will do. seems in the '04 election they continued to recount and "find" votes until the results were what the Dems wanted. Everybody wants a fair election just that one party in this country wants everyone to vote legally or not, just vote and vote democrat.
The sudden "discovery" of several thousand absentee ballots in King County was certainly able to get my attention. I can't help but think that, voter fraud or not, everyone associated with that needs to be out of the election business. If fraud my answer for all politcal stripes is the same -- jail, jail and more jail. If it was an oversight, those people were either too lazy to count the votes which disenfranchised the voters or too incompetent to do their jobs.

I'm sure they were declared "heroes" and rewarded.

I find the fight against enhancing voter documentation pathetic. You have to have more ID to get a drivers licence or cash a check than to vote. Somehow asking someone to prove who they are is violating their "civil rights." I doubt any legal voter doesn't have to cash a check.

Actually, I take that back. My MIL's drivers license expired and I know she won't be cashing any checks. Of course, she has dementia and is confined to a bed/wheel chair.


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