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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-11-2007, 04:53 PM   #61
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Re: Obamarama

So who'd she vote for?
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-11-2007, 05:16 PM   #62
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Re: Obamarama

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
So who'd she vote for?
Harry Truman
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-11-2007, 11:50 PM   #63
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Re: Obamarama

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
translation--if the Rebulicans cheat, it's the dems fault because they didn't try hard enough.
No........ Dems and Reps both try to control elections. If the whimpy Florida Dems would get things organized like they are in Chicago/Cook County and most other major urban areas, you wouldn't have to worry about the Reps.
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I never brought up butterfly ballots.
I never said you did. Did you read my post?
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If you want to defend this stuff, go right ahead.
I didn't defend anything the Reps did. Did you read my post? But I am disgusted that the Dems didn't have a major urban area with a high percentage of minorities properly organized and under control. It should have been a Dem landslide. I'm sorry, but I just can't sign off on spending 100% of your energy whining about the other guy leaving no energy to do anything about it.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-12-2007, 08:22 AM   #64
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by bosco
Katherine Harrris was a Demorcrat from those counties?
bosco-- You complain that Katherine Harris was part of the problem. All she did was certify the election in accordance with the law. The Dems complained that because they used the butterfly ballot it could have caused confusion with the voters. Because they believed the voter were confused they felt they had to determine voter intent and it was taking much longer for them to conduct the recounts. Then they blame Harris because she did not give them more time, which would have violated state law. If it was a possible problem they should have chosen a different format, but they didn't so it is their fault, not Katherine Harris' for certifying the election in accordance with state law.

The biggest hole in you argument about Jeb conducting the elections illegally, is the DEMS still controlled the White House and the U.S. Marshals. If Clinton didn't feel it was necessary to send down the Marshals, then there are only a couple conclusions. 1) He saw through the B.S. also and knew nothing would be found. 2) He knew the Dems did just as many dirty things as the Reps and didn't want the skeletons in their closets to get out. Or 3) None of your supposed violations actually happened. Why would 2 be so important? Maybe because the skeletons in the Dems closet are bigger then what you assert happened in 2000. Personally, I think 2 is the most probable.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-12-2007, 09:44 AM   #65
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by lets-retire

The biggest hole in you argument about Jeb conducting the elections illegally, is the DEMS still controlled the White House and the U.S. Marshals. If Clinton didn't feel it was necessary to send down the Marshals, then there are only a couple conclusions. 1) He saw through the B.S. also and knew nothing would be found. 2) He knew the Dems did just as many dirty things as the Reps and didn't want the skeletons in their closets to get out. Or 3) None of your supposed violations actually happened. Why would 2 be so important? Maybe because the skeletons in the Dems closet are bigger then what you assert happened in 2000. Personally, I think 2 is the most probable.
Nothing you said changes the fact that there were numerous documented cases of election malfeasance in Florida, and these went well beyond the bogus recount. If there was election tampering, I don't care which party did it. I think the Marshals should have been sent, and let the chips fall. And let's let every registered voter vote and let's count their votes. And I think that a fair election and vote count is more important than some bogus deadline cited by a party minion.

I'm not defending the Dems conduct--they brought it on themselves. But it's a little much to hear Bush squawking about Yassar Arafat and "regime change" a few months later when Yassar was elected with 90+ percent. Any idea how the US lecturing other countries about democracy plays in the world these days?
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-12-2007, 10:06 AM   #66
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by bosco
Nothing you said changes the fact that there were numerous documented cases of election malfeasance in Florida, and these went well beyond the bogus recount. If there was election tampering, I don't care which party did it. I think the Marshals should have been sent, and let the chips fall. And let's let every registered voter vote and let's count their votes. And I think that a fair election and vote count is more important than some bogus deadline cited by a party minion.

I'm not defending the Dems conduct--they brought it on themselves. But it's a little much to hear Bush squawking about Yassar Arafat and "regime change" a few months later when Yassar was elected with 90+ percent. Any idea how the US lecturing other countries about democracy plays in the world these days?
Nothing you say changes the fact that nobody was arrested, so there is nothing to support your position except wild speculation and rumor. The Dems had a vested interest in seeing Bush defeated (they would have kept the White House), since they controlled the police powers at the federal level and the US Supreme Court ruled there was a federal issue that gave Clinton the go ahead, he didn't so your position is simply sour grapes, hate for the right side of the aisle, or conspiracy theory.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-12-2007, 10:39 AM   #67
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Re: Obamarama

There was probably a lot more at stake than simply having the ability and electing (sorry) to not exercise it.

How does it look in the long term if the federal government, headed by a party that appears to be losing an election, sends the storm troopers in to "correct" a huge failure or execution of malfeasance in the election process?

Having carefully reviewed a lot of the materials around some of the election issues in florida, it sure looks to me like there were a bunch of goofs, most of them probably procedural shirking and incompetence rather than criminal intentions. And I'm sure a bunch of minor drift, errors and whatnot occurs in every election...its just not usually that close to matter.

Having said all that, it appears that Gore might very well have won the state and the election, had everything been 100% accurate. Having said that, I dont think he'd have made for a great president, but i'm not that thrilled with the one we got either.

But sending in the cops to 'straighten it out'? I doubt that was a good idea and I'm quite sure that it was discussed and rejected to maintain the good status quo of a fairly lucrative system.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-12-2007, 11:27 AM   #68
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
And I'm sure a bunch of minor drift, errors and whatnot occurs in every election...its just not usually that close to matter.
And that's the key right there. For example, Chicago/Cook County has been so overwhelmingly Dem controlled for so long, that when the normal 100 - 200 ghost voters registered with addresses that turn out to be Wrigley Field are detected, it's just a source of humor and much fond recollection of notorious similar situations from the past, even in the conservative media. If elections ever become closer, I suppose those attitudes might change. But for now, a few tens of thousands of ghost votes, patronage systems, city services delivered in trade for votes, etc., mean little with the vote being so one-sided.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-12-2007, 11:29 AM   #69
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Re: Obamarama

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...his policies took a lower priority than his "cowboy brash."
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-12-2007, 11:30 AM   #70
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Re: Obamarama

This debate about a six-year-old election reminds me of James Kilpatrick & Jane Curtin on Saturday Night Live. Even Al Gore thinks it's over.

Next up on "Face the Natives": "Who really won the Civil War?"
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-12-2007, 11:51 AM   #71
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Re: Obamarama

Catch that HBO special on election irregularities. Pretty eye opening. Especially the part where the guy poked at the election machine for a minute using ordinary PC stuff and made it produce the vote counts he wanted it to. And the part where they caught one of the election officials throwing out trash bags full of uncounted ballots and the original tapes from the voting machines, which differed from the ones handed over to the media.

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/hac.../synopsis.html
http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/hac...ilmmakers.html

I'm a little less worried about the election from six years ago than I am about the one two years from now.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-12-2007, 05:01 PM   #72
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Re: Obamarama

I saw that documentary and it was clear that there were huge failures on the part of the elections officials - whether intentional or not - and a huge failure by any party to follow up and ensure it was investigated properly.

in any election there is a small percentage of votes that get miscounted for whatever reason - but when you see things like elections officials "precounting" a "random" sample, you know funny business is going on.

i think that john kerry dropped the ball as an active senator by not calling the election to question - there is a huge level of complacency and unwillingness to shake things up lest they ultimately lose their position in society for standing up for the rest of us!
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-14-2007, 10:13 AM   #73
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
Nothing you say changes the fact that nobody was arrested, so there is nothing to support your position except wild speculation and rumor.
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/04needs/voting04.htm
http://afrocubaweb.com/bananarepublic.htm

There are plenty of other sources, but as somebody pointed out, the Dems were paralyzed by how partisan it would look if they attempted to enforce the law. How that's different than a partisan supreme court changing all it's past policies to render a partisan decision (in the past, the Supreme court had never ever meddled in a state's right to conduct elections) is beyond me, except that the supreme court isn't elected.

If you choose to believe that you live in a country where democracy actually works without active efforts being made to ensure it does, that's up to you. Keep whistling in the dark, and don't forget to bow down to your corporate masters. I won't be able to convince you. Much easier to point the finger at other countries, and invade them to bolster the self-image. Sort of like the alcoholic that decides he doesn't have a problem because "Bill there drinks more than I do".
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-14-2007, 10:57 AM   #74
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Re: Obamarama

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I'll also repeat my Obama opinion. He is clearly articulate, personable and intelligent. He also has next to no experience. Where's the "gravitas" for him? If he was a white repub with 2 years of senate experience, he would be laughed at if he announced he was running for the presidency.
Bush held 6 years as governor of a state where the governor holds little authority.

Obama held 7 years in the Illinois Senate and is now a US Senator.

Were you concerned about Bush's lack of "gravitas" in 2000?

Did Abe Lincoln lack "gravitas"? He had 8 years in the IL Senate and 2 years as a US Senator before becoming President.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-14-2007, 11:04 AM   #75
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Re: Obamarama

bosco--reports of this, witnesses of that, without DETAILS of where mean it cannot be verified and has to placed in the pile of wild speculation and rumors. The only specific places mentioned were on the EAST side of the state, where, you guessed, it the DEMS controlled. : So I guess your correct the DEMS screwed it up so we must blame the Reps, because the Reps are mean and hateful.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-14-2007, 11:12 AM   #76
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Re: Obamarama

Eridanus...all true although bushies old man had some experience that I sort of expected would get tapped when I voted for GW in 2000.

And look how that Bush thing turned out.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-14-2007, 01:39 PM   #77
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Re: Obamarama

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... bushies old man had some experience that I sort of expected would get tapped when I voted for GW in 2000.
But no, he talks to a "higher father".

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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-14-2007, 05:38 PM   #78
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Re: Obamarama

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Originally Posted by bosco
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/04needs/voting04.htm
http://afrocubaweb.com/bananarepublic.htm

There are plenty of other sources, but as somebody pointed out, the Dems were paralyzed by how partisan it would look if they attempted to enforce the law. How that's different than a partisan supreme court changing all it's past policies to render a partisan decision (in the past, the Supreme court had never ever meddled in a state's right to conduct elections) is beyond me, except that the supreme court isn't elected.

If you choose to believe that you live in a country where democracy actually works without active efforts being made to ensure it does, that's up to you. Keep whistling in the dark, and don't forget to bow down to your corporate masters. I won't be able to convince you. Much easier to point the finger at other countries, and invade them to bolster the self-image. Sort of like the alcoholic that decides he doesn't have a problem because "Bill there drinks more than I do".
There are so many inaccuracies in your bile I don't even feel the need to point them out. You are filled with hate. Get over it or go away. I suspect Canada will accept you with open arms.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-14-2007, 09:04 PM   #79
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Re: Obamarama

if the elections were questionable - both parties should have pursued an independent investigation - you shouldn't just say something if you were on the losing side...that is the sad part.
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Re: Obamarama
Old 02-14-2007, 09:08 PM   #80
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Re: Obamarama

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There are so many inaccuracies in your bile I don't even feel the need to point them out. You are filled with hate. Get over it or go away. I suspect Canada will accept you with open arms.
Ah yes, love it or leave it. I remember it well from the Viet Nam era. Sure Canada accepts me with open arms. The problem with that is...? And just how is that an insult? As if Canada doesn't have many of her own problems. I'm not shy about pointing them out either, since I have a stake there also.

However, since the United States insists on taxing me regardless of where I live or was born (one of only two nations in the world to have that policy), I will continue to hold and express opinions, with or without your approval, and even when I've "gone away" for that matter. I would say that your post rates significantly higher on the hate scale than mine, and it's pretty personally directed as well. Since you know nothing about my history, I can only assume it really irritates you when someone expresses opinions that are different than yours. Too bad.

However, perhaps you are mistaking hatred on my part for disappointment. It's possible I feel betrayed, and that it's not about parties. Let's retire keeps trying to bring it back to whose turf it happened on, dems or repubs. I don't care. It wasn't ok in Illinois in 1960 and it's not ok in Florida in 2000. The first step in solving a problem is realizing there is one. Refusing to accept it does not solve it.

I'll say it one more time: It doesn't matter if it's dems or repubs. When voter disenfranchisement is tolerated, everyone loses. Whether the disenfranchisement is deliberate or just due to lots and lots of "mistakes." I suppose next you guys will argue that the history of denying blacks voting rights was just anecdotal and didn't really happen. There is no excuse for disenfranchisng voters, and yes, there were plenty of examples, plenty of complaints, and nothing done about it. It's a fact that the Supreme court had, up until 2000, assiduously left these matters in the hands of the state and crossed that self-imposed line they had left sacrosanct up until then to put Bush in the white house. Call it bile, call it hate-- it's always unpleasant for a person to have to realize that one's own country has some of the same faults that many others do. Seems to hit a raw nerve, though.

I have nothing more to say about this matter. I enjoy a spirited debate and probably express myself too strongly. Now that it's getting personal, I'll bow out. And, 2B, even though I disagree with you and don't appreciate your attitude, it's ok with me if you don't "go away."
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