Obama's kin were slave masters?

[Texas Proud]

Uh-hem, Samclem, sorry, usually your arguments strike me as sound, even if I disagree with them, but this time I have to say I find them way out of line. In fact, I find them out of character for you. Let's use a simple analogy. Say you have a foot race, and one athlete is chained up for the first 100 yards of the 1000 yard race. At that point, we realize that this is wrong, and let him free. Then we say, "well, now everything is fair, keep going!" Only he is 100 yards behind the rest of the pack. Then we tell him he's a whiner and to quit playing the victim.

Way stupid analogy IMO.... the race for that guy stopped a LONG time ago... today all are starting 'even'...

And how come the Vietnam people who came over in the 70s who were WAY behind in the race are now out in front

BTW, if you go back a bit, almost all countries had slavery... it is NOT an American thing... why is it only in America that there should be help to the RACE of the people who were slaves, even if they were not the decendents of slaves To me it is a RACE issue, not a slave issue...

And people also forget that slavery is still going on in various countries in Africa and China... but again, only America is the 'bad guy'...

To me, almost all the arguments people throw up to defend their positions are straw men... they don't show anything of the real problem... to me the real problem is that today the likelyhood that a black child has a 'father' as we would think of one is only 33%... and the blacks who have a father that works etc. has a great chance of learning and getting ahead... if they are born to a crack head woman who has 10 children from 10 different men, not likely to make it in life...

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Dad? Is that you?

 

[samclem]

brighteyed,
This is a very emotionally charged issue, and I think that maybe talking about it doesn't help, at least not at this point in our societal process of healing. At a friend's funeral, you don't walk up to the grieving widow and tell her "well, Joe was a great guy, but it is time to move on. We all get dealt crappy hands now and then, but the best thing to do is to just dust yourself off and move on withyour life. Here's the number for my accountant, he'll help you with the finances. Hey, you need to think about getting a job--Joe played the ponies a lot, and spent a lot on his mistress, I'm sure he didn't leave you much." No. That widow wants and needs to be told what a great guy Joe was, and she needs everyone to huddle around her and make comforting noises about the tragedy of Joe's death, and what a nasty blow it is, and how she's holding up well despite everything. I think that's where we are in our national dialogue on this issue.

But, as I think we all recognize, the sooner Joe's widow does dust herself off and move on, the more progress she'll make. And if she locks herself in the house surrounded by pictures of Joe and waits for others to bring her dinner for 50-60 years, it will be natural for them to either view her as helpless or start resenting the chore of preparing food for her.

More evidence that we're not ready to have this discussion: My comments were called "racist" with the implication that I was a racist. This is absolutely not true. A racist believes in the superiority of particular races over others (and, by extension, the inferiority of some races). I absolutely reject that, have never written it, and I strongly resent the implication, even if it just stems from sloppy thinking and ignorance rather than malice. Also, a racist is interested in perpetuating racial distinctions and racial preferences. My view is exactly the opposite, as should be clear from what I've written. Others prefer to retain the labels and distinctons--draw your own conclusions.

Sam - after reading this whole thread, I get the impression that you are basically saying that life for the poor in today's America is better than life for the poor in today's Africa. Thus it is the better place to be born. While the point is debatable it certainly isn't reprehensible.

Yep, that is pretty much my point and how ths whole thing started . . .

The problem is that you do a Colter and wrap it up with an assertion that the descendants of slaves are better off for it than those of the left behind. But this second point sounds (I realize you don't intend it this way) like an endorsement of the past.

Right, it was abolutely not an endorsement. And, I think the role of "intent" is important to mention: Those slave traders had no intention of benefitting those slaves--they intended to use them as animals, to kill as many as needed, and to exploit them in the most brutal sense. Sometimes their future "owners" were less brutal, but frequently not. So, there was no intent to help these people. And they intended to enslave their future generations, so there was no intent to help them, either. But, as it has tured out (and only with benefit of hindsight is it possible to see this), their descendents are better off than if they had remained in Africa. Of course, the whole idea of "their descendents" only makes sense as a group, since these same offspring wouldn't have been born to these same parents in Ghana, since the individuals would not have met, etc.

But, you are right-- word choice and the way things are presented are important in this very sensitive area. And, I can well understand why people choose not to discuss these things in their daily lives--too easy to miscommunicate with disasterous impact on relationships and careers.

 

[ADJ]

Way stupid analogy IMO.... the race for that guy stopped a LONG time ago... today all are starting 'even'...

And how come the Vietnam people who came over in the 70s who were WAY behind in the race are now out in front

BTW, if you go back a bit, almost all countries had slavery... it is NOT an American thing... why is it only in America that there should be help to the RACE of the people who were slaves, even if they were not the decendents of slaves To me it is a RACE issue, not a slave issue...

And people also forget that slavery is still going on in various countries in Africa and China... but again, only America is the 'bad guy'...

To me, almost all the arguments people throw up to defend their positions are straw men... they don't show anything of the real problem... to me the real problem is that today the likelyhood that a black child has a 'father' as we would think of one is only 33%... and the blacks who have a father that works etc. has a great chance of learning and getting ahead... if they are born to a crack head woman who has 10 children from 10 different men, not likely to make it in life...

Texas Proud, some of your assertions are based on lies and untruths and reflect a great ignorance of American and world history. While some immigrants groups come here and do better, you are ignoring that they have not been subject to hundreds of years of discrimination that still shackles the minds in many African American communities (your assertion reflects ignorance of human psychology). Here's an example, one of the worst places for blacks in this world are Colombia and Brazil. Their treatment was almost identical to that of blacks in America except that they still do not have civil rights today. These same blacks in Brazil and Colombia would today tell you that being black is not a good thing and they wish to have their children by someone white so they can have "better" children. Do you think this mindset is by accident?

Contrary to you assertion, there is no sanctioned slavery anywhere in the world. There are isolated incidents of people kept against their will in many parts of the world including America where people are brought to work as sex slaves.

And no the race for the guy did not stop a long time ago. While you may not be a racist (I am not sure from the post above), but many people still are. Look around the make up of American society and judge for yourself. If the playing field were leveled and blacks did not struggle with the legacy of racism, they would have the same chance of success as any white but that's simply not the case. The vast majority of blacks are still mired in abject poverty, living in god awful conditions, dodging bullets daily while only a minority of whites experience this. Why do you think this condition persists? Is it because blacks are inherently stupid? I know lots of educated and successful blacks who really appears to have nothing in common except skin color with other blacks so blacks are making progress everyday but it will take time, money and effort from society including all of us.

Do you know that fatherless children is not something that occurs only in the black community? More than 33% of all children in America and living without a father in the home. The issue for blacks is not the absence of fathers but the reality of poverty and lack of education. Check out any society where poverty and ignorance rule and you will see the same pathology as in the black community. It's not all a race issue since we are all individuals and lots of blacks have made it to the middle class. It only becomes a race issue within the context of the legacy of slavery and discrimination. Keep in mind that black people were marching in the late 1960s for civil rights. That was not long ago.


You raise the social issues that affect blacks but you are not answering the question why. It's true that who your parents are is the single most important factor in how you turn out but you've got to have the educated and economically successful parents first. Don't you? If your parents and the generation of parents before them are still suffering the effects of discrimination and slavery, then you're really on your own.

 

[ADJ]

Samclem, may I remind you of your post, see below. You are suggesting that slavery was better of for blacks. Tell me where I misunderstood you.

"Rewind 250 years and put yourself in the place of an African. As it turns out, there's virtually NOTHING you could have done that would have done more to help assure a better life for your offspring than to be taken to America as a slave. Yes, your life and the lives of your children would be terrible and likely short. But, to think your great-great grandchildren would be better off if you stay on the continent is to ignore the tragic history of Africa and the great progress blacks have made here."

 

[samclem]

Samclem, may I remind you of your post, see below. You are suggesting that slavery was better of for blacks. Tell me where I misunderstood you.

"Rewind 250 years and put yourself in the place of an African. As it turns out, there's virtually NOTHING you could have done that would have done more to help assure a better life for your offspring than to be taken to America as a slave. Yes, your life and the lives of your children would be terrible and likely short. But, to think your great-great grandchildren would be better off if you stay on the continent is to ignore the tragic history of Africa and the great progress blacks have made here."

I think subsequent posts have beaten this to death. I am "suggesting" exactly what I wrote. I do NOT believe that individual blacks taken as slaves benefitted. I do not believe those who took them did it with benevolent intent. I believe that a completely unintended result of slavery is that the descendents of these individuals are better off than a typical cohort group of blacks who remained in Africa.

But is that an important comparison? No. Because we need to view these individuals as Americans, not as blacks or displaced Africans. So, the important comparison now (for those not stuck in the past) is between these Americans and other Americans. And, in that comparison, this group is not doing well. My view is that the most compassionate answer is to help each of these people (and every citizen) to attain their fullest potential as individuals. That starts with personal responsibility and a rejection of the corrosive effects of a victimhood mentality.

 

[bright eyed]

samclem this is precisely why we should all talk more about it - in my opinion

because if we did it more often then the verbal assaults and misunderstandings would lessen.

in my experience most people are genuinely "good" but also genuinely a bit misinformed and often these discussions get off on precisely the wrong foot because the "wrong" things come out ...

most people have a lot of wrong ideas about each other - passed down through generations and whatever is omitted from history books - let's keep that in mind...

but if you take huge assumptions aside and people start to listen, progress is made.

you didn't do anything wrong but state what you thought - but you walked into quicksand since it is such a hot topic, trip wires abound.

but if we all put that aside for a minute i think a lot can be gained since it seems people here have a great variety of opinion and experience.

given that - to say that people are all on the same foot tells me you (edit: i think someone else said this not samcm) may not understand what it really is like for someone who experiences discrimination or disadvantage...you cannot compare the experiences of asian immigrants like the vietnamese who came here were welcomed, given support, subsidies etc (although scattered across the US) etc.

the generations of racism, distrust, poverty etc. has a compounding affect that differentiates the experience of black americans from other recent immigrants who people always point to and say, "look" they're ok so stop complaining.

i am an immigrant, came when i was a little girl but my family is well educated and came in on special "professional" visas available for professionals to migrate - my parents had a support network of other families from our country, my dad had a job when we got here, the company provided a home for the first year... even still, i struggled with discrimination because of my accent (at the time) or ignorance of american culture and while i am greatly beyond that now as an adult - i now see the difference between myself and other adults who have parents who can "show them the way" for things like - financial planning, career etc...my parents not coming from here cannot offer that advice...and that is nothing compared to a kid who grew up in a tough neighborhood, went to a bad school, parents were not sufficiently parenting etc....

also, i have to say that poverty rates for some asians - like cambodian, hmong are often worse than afn amns and always overlooked because people think all asians are smart, professional and ok economically...

given all of that - i think we went through a phase where people wanted the government to fix everything - up thru the civil rights era and now people are in the phase where they are taking charge of their own communities and neighborhood - somewhat jaded by what the govmt can and can't do...so i am very hopeful for the future and i think it will improve attitudes on all sides.

 

[chris2008]

If his father saw no reason to hold it against his wife - why should we?

 

[laurence]

Way stupid analogy IMO.... the race for that guy stopped a LONG time ago... today all are starting 'even'...

And how come the Vietnam people who came over in the 70s who were WAY behind in the race are now out in front

BTW, if you go back a bit, almost all countries had slavery... it is NOT an American thing... why is it only in America that there should be help to the RACE of the people who were slaves, even if they were not the decendents of slaves To me it is a RACE issue, not a slave issue...

And people also forget that slavery is still going on in various countries in Africa and China... but again, only America is the 'bad guy'...

To me, almost all the arguments people throw up to defend their positions are straw men... they don't show anything of the real problem... to me the real problem is that today the likelyhood that a black child has a 'father' as we would think of one is only 33%... and the blacks who have a father that works etc. has a great chance of learning and getting ahead... if they are born to a crack head woman who has 10 children from 10 different men, not likely to make it in life...

I'm going to just respond to one portion of your post, because the other portions aren't parts I think I could change your mind on, and will only lead to rancor:

"Why only America...?"

Simply put, because the bar is higher in America. That's what makes this country great. I'm not interested in the fact that we treat people here better than Somolia or Saudi Arabia. That should go without saying. This country is one of the greatest if not the greatest country only as long as we continue to demand it. We should never settle.

 

[Texas Proud]

I'm going to just respond to one portion of your post, because the other portions aren't parts I think I could change your mind on, and will only lead to rancor:

"Why only America...?"

Simply put, because the bar is higher in America. That's what makes this country great. I'm not interested in the fact that we treat people here better than Somolia or Saudi Arabia. That should go without saying. This country is one of the greatest if not the greatest country only as long as we continue to demand it. We should never settle.

No problem with me.. on my other points... and I am talking from a place of knowledge... I grew up in a 'mixed' neighborhood and schools... they were listed as 'black'... and my mother taught in a black school and my sister was a social worker in California checking on the family... I have seen and heard to me the 'real' deal.. how many here grew up with 40% of your school black and 20% mexican american

To the other poster that did not like what I had said.. yes, there are a lot of white children born to single teen mothers... and they don't do much better.. which shows it is poverty that is the problem not race... but people keep saying it is a race issue and we need to help the black race because of SLAVERY... screw that... not a single person living today was a slave or knew a slave... (maybe a couple could... but I doubt it..)

And we have spent BILLIONS of dollars to bring them 'up to our level'... well, there are many that have done it, but the ones who have not will not... now, if you want to have a program to help out poor people who have shown that they want to improve their life... great.. do it...

BTW, from what my sister said, they teach each other how to 'game' the system.. they are very good at getting money from the government and not working... they would make sure thier cars were not there when they were inspected, have a few extra children over to the house...

Am I racist... a bit.. everybody is to a point... (and I think that the blacks can be racist also... which many are)... but believe that if someone wants to get ahead, there are many programs that can help them get ahead... it is up to them to do it, not ask to be taken care of their whole life because they were the great great grandchildren of a slave...

 

[Texas Proud]

Contrary to you assertion, there is no sanctioned slavery anywhere in the world. There are isolated incidents of people kept against their will in many parts of the world including America where people are brought to work as sex slaves.

There is slavery in China sanctioned by the government... there is slavery in Africa sanctioned by the government... are there laws for them I don't know. But if the government looks the other way, it is sanctioned... and from what I read about China, the gvmt is the one doing it...

And BTW, sanctioned or not, being a slave is still being a slave...

 

[samclem]

samclem this is precisely why we should all talk more about it - in my opinion

because if we did it more often then the verbal assaults and misunderstandings would lessen.

There are very few venues where one can or should talk about this issue, unfortunately. You can see by the string below that a fairly nuanced point, made in writing, got twisted into what was portrayed as a racist comment. Now, imagine if I'd made the same comment verbally at work (with no written record). It would take only one person to misinterpret it, exactly as was done here, to put me in a no-win defensive battle. At the very least I'd be subjected to 12 hours of mandatory re-education in the EEO office, and it's very possible that I'd end up fired or at least dinged with "interpersonal insensitivity" on my performance review. Who needs that? Nope, I don't believe that these issues will be up for honest discussion as long as folks shout "racist" before truly listening to the point being made.

 

[laurence]

No problem with me.. on my other points... and I am talking from a place of knowledge... I grew up in a 'mixed' neighborhood and schools... they were listed as 'black'... and my mother taught in a black school and my sister was a social worker in California checking on the family... I have seen and heard to me the 'real' deal.. how many here grew up with 40% of your school black and 20% mexican american

To the other poster that did not like what I had said.. yes, there are a lot of white children born to single teen mothers... and they don't do much better.. which shows it is poverty that is the problem not race... but people keep saying it is a race issue and we need to help the black race because of SLAVERY... screw that... not a single person living today was a slave or knew a slave... (maybe a couple could... but I doubt it..)

And we have spent BILLIONS of dollars to bring them 'up to our level'... well, there are many that have done it, but the ones who have not will not... now, if you want to have a program to help out poor people who have shown that they want to improve their life... great.. do it...

BTW, from what my sister said, they teach each other how to 'game' the system.. they are very good at getting money from the government and not working... they would make sure thier cars were not there when they were inspected, have a few extra children over to the house...

Am I racist... a bit.. everybody is to a point... (and I think that the blacks can be racist also... which many are)... but believe that if someone wants to get ahead, there are many programs that can help them get ahead... it is up to them to do it, not ask to be taken care of their whole life because they were the great great grandchildren of a slave...

Hmmm, I think there has been plenty of scientificly valid evidence to refute the anecdotes of the welfare queen driving up in the cadillac to pick up her check. As far as gaming the system, sure there will be some who abuse every system, but the vast majority are not. As far as my background, yep, pretty sheltered white kid. Did grow up in L.A., most elementary school class photos of mine I'm the only white kid in the group - more like 80% black 15% mexican in my hood at the time, it's been moving more latino over the last decade though. I even have black relatives, but none closer than Uncle or Cousin. So I don't believe I have the proper insight to speak for blacks on this issue. Point is, everybody can come up with anecdotal evidence as to why their viewpoint is right, it's important to look at properly conducted studies on this subject to reach sound conclusions.

Bottom line is, you have two choices for why blacks have higher infant mortality, lower average life spans, higher crime rate, higher poverty, higher drug abuse rates, lower education levels etc. than whites. 1) They are genetically inferior or 2) they got screwed.

For that matter, the same goes for native americans who suffer the same lower stats as blacks.

But blacks in America have made great strides, the average income, net worth, and education levels rose significantly from the sixties until -surprise! - affirmative action and other programs were pushed back and cut down starting in the 80's. Since then it has leveled off, but the gains made were retained. Since it costs more to incarcerate a young man than to send him to an elite private college, it only makes sense to fund programs that get more minorities into college. We all are wealthier when someone is earning a good living (and paying taxes) rather than in jail.

 

[ADJ]

Am I racist... a bit.. everybody is to a point... (and I think that the blacks can be racist also... which many are)...

Speak for yourself. Your name says it all.

 

[laurence]

There are very few venues where one can or should talk about this issue, unfortunately. You can see by the string below that a fairly nuanced point, made in writing, got twisted into what was portrayed as a racist comment. Now, imagine if I'd made the same comment verbally at work (with no written record). It would take only one person to misinterpret it, exactly as was done here, to put me in a no-win defensive battle. At the very least I'd be subjected to 12 hours of mandatory re-education in the EEO office, and it's very possible that I'd end up fired or at least dinged with "interpersonal insensitivity" on my performance review. Who needs that? Nope, I don't believe that these issues will be up for honest discussion as long as folks shout "racist" before truly listening to the point being made.

Probably 100 years from now African-Americans will be close enough to on-par with whites that it won't matter. Until then, watch your mouth you dang cracker!

Seriously, the issue is still too fresh. Slavery may have been 140 years ago, but just about everybody on this board ( except for me) is old enough to remember the events portraid in "Mississippi Burning" and the dogs and hoses being turned on young blacks who tried to stage sit ins against segragation. Race relations in this country are the best they've ever been, even the majority of blacks agree (according to those suspect polls) on that front. It will only be better come the next generation. Maybe my grandkids will be able to rationally discuss this issue with others without pushing buttons.

 

[samclem]

Speak for yourself. Your name says it all.

Thanks for the helpful comment. I wonder what it means? Texans are racists? People who are proud are racists? Lay on the stereotyping please--I know we can get it thicker than this!!

 

[bright eyed]

Tex, i think the problem is that you seem to cast a broad net and cloud a whole race with some of the folks who are taking advantage...you could do that for every race - but i don't think every texan want's to be judged by Bush, or every white person judged by the uni-bomber... etc.

that is by definition stereotyping.

i understand it is easy to get jaded given your experiences and that of your sisters...especially because some people are so deeply entrenched in behaviors, psychology and expectations that are part of modern day american poverty - but it is a bit simplified to say race doesn't play a role - it does but of course is not the only piece of the pie. most people know there is a lot of BS that goes on in impoverished neighborhoods - but i don't think it's fair to say - "get over it" without seeing the whole picture...

 

[mickeyd]

Quote from: Texas Proud on Today at 03:36:52 PM
Am I racist... a bit.. everybody is to a point... (and I think that the blacks can be racist also... which many are)...


Speak for yourself. Your name says it all.

Hey ADJ,

Surely you are not indicating that the millions of good folks in TX are somewhat racist, are you? The comments of Texas Proud should be taken at face value. You might want to broaden your outlook.

Texas is about the best place in the entire USA to park your bones.

 

[REWahoo]

Texas is about the best place in the entire USA to park your bones.

But wait until you are dead before parking them here, please.

 

[Texas Proud]

Tex, i think the problem is that you seem to cast a broad net and cloud a whole race with some of the folks who are taking advantage...you could do that for every race - but i don't think every texan want's to be judged by Bush, or every white person judged by the uni-bomber... etc.

that is by definition stereotyping.

i understand it is easy to get jaded given your experiences and that of your sisters...especially because some people are so deeply entrenched in behaviors, psychology and expectations that are part of modern day american poverty - but it is a bit simplified to say race doesn't play a role - it does but of course is not the only piece of the pie. most people know there is a lot of BS that goes on in impoverished neighborhoods - but i don't think it's fair to say - "get over it" without seeing the whole picture...

Hmmm... I am posting bad comments as I am not being understood... but that happens at times....

What I am trying to say is that RACE and SLAVERY is not playing as much of an issue as POVERTY.... and the people in poverty have ways to get out of that situation... some take it, others don't....

I grew up in poverty... not bad poverty, but we were very very poor... My brother and sisters and I made something of ourselves and are now mostly middle class or upper middle... many of my classmates decided to scam the system.. it was not done so by race.. may whites did the same thing... so when someone is saying that slavery is what keeps the current group of blacks down I say BS... it is many other factors but slavery..

And when people say that they should be compensated for slavery, I again say BS... they were not slaves... and their parents were not slaves... and their grand parents were not slaves... is there racism... yes... is that a valid reason to have some programs, yes... slavery, no..

Also.. I am very proud of being a Texan... and also very proud of being an American... I wear shirts with Texas and American flags even when I go overseas... does that make me a racist? and I find that almost everybody has racist tendencies in them... but nobody wants to admit it.. I will... but they are small in me compared to others that I know... and there are also blacks who hate whites (who seem to get a free ride... I hate hypocracy)...