Office bully/poisonous management

[jug]

Im just curious about something. For the past 5 or 6 years I have been co- moderating several boards on the net dealing with office bullies usually concerning the tactics used by managers, among others to scapegoat various employees.

Needless to say, this type of behavior is very detrimental to the mental health of those being targeted at work.

I was wondering is some of you out there made a decision to FIRE based on this situation.

Im sure someone here wants to FIRE due to the crap they put up with by management.

thanks
jug

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Im sure someone here wants to FIRE due to the crap they put up with by management.

thanks
jug

I'm sure this is true. It had no bearing on my decision as I
mostly always was management.

JG

 

[azanon]

Something like that might cause me to look for another job, but not out-right retire.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I'm sure this is true. It had no bearing on my decision as I
mostly always was management.

I'm sure you did everything you could to promote those employees to think about retirement

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I'm sure you did everything you could to promote those employees to think about retirement

Yeah, and a few I made the decision for them. Actually I think of
myself as a benevolent dictator. I am pretty sure not everyone who
worked for me enjoyed it, but I know many did and that is a nice
feeling.

JG

 

[jug]

Yeah, and a few I made the decision for them.  Actually I think of
myself as a benevolent dictator.  I am pretty sure not everyone who
worked for me enjoyed it, but I know many did and that is a nice
feeling.

JG

Actually, management people, to their credit hold a pretty difficult position.

Usually in an organization, they are sort of caught in the middle. If they act too benevolent for what is normal in the worksite, they run the risk of being ostrasized by their peers or bosses. If they are too brutal, it usually brings no trouble unless of course they go overboard.

Middle managers have a juggling act to do in many cases, they have to "manage" their workers properly, which in itself is not so easy considering many people bring their own baggage to a job, but on the other hand, they have to keep their own bosses happy and cover up any situation that would make the mid manager appear to not be keeping "order" in upper management's eyes.

Its hard being in the middle, would rather be at the pinnacle or at least in very good favor with the "boys" on top. Less stress this way.
jug

 

[CyclingInvestor]

Its hard being in the middle, would rather be at the pinnacle or at least in very good favor with the "boys" on top. Less stress this way.
jug

I have always felt safest at the bottom. No underlings to stab me in the back, no
unpaid overtime (20% more pay for 50% more work makes for an eay choice),
and if/when managers become ogres just quit and find a similar job elsewhere
(very easy as a programmer in LA). Of course, now the last scenario is even
easier to handle since I have become FI. . .

 

[Brat]

Needless to say, this type of behavior is very detrimental to the mental health of those being targeted at work.

I was wondering is some of you out there made a decision to FIRE based on this situation.

Im sure someone here wants to FIRE due to the crap they put up with by management.

I did.  Age 48 with 26 years of service, cashed in my 'IOUs'.  There were 6 other employees on accepted stress workers comp in a management span of less than 30.  I made a graceful exit, then wrote a note to my representative (who was a friend of the Department Secretary) asking that the cause of the workers comp claims be investigated.  It wasn't 6 weeks before the manager had his walking papers.

 

[Nords]

I was wondering is some of you out there made a decision to FIRE based on this situation.

I watched many many junior officers & enlisted leave the service because they "didn't want to risk having another CO like that EVER".

I'd try to tell them about all the great things they could look forward to... but they'd already been watching what my job was like and it was tough to change their minds.

In late 2001 an admiral visited a major base, had a mandatory meeting with several hundred JO submariners, and decided to administer a little tough love. He admonished them "You guys can't expect to just leave the Navy in today's market and make the same kind of money out there that you're making here. This is the only job in the world where you can make more than $100K/year with only five years' experience."

One of the JOs raised his hand and said "Sir, my wife makes more than that now." Then he asked for a show of hands and a dozen others went up.

That was the end of that retention meeting...

 

[SteveR]

After 31 years in management at various levels one come to appreciate the knowledge that you will no longer be one in a couple of years.  

My son is just starting out in a management job in IT where he has been recently promoted from "IT flunky" to "IT flunky manager."   He is learning to appreciate the rigors of being a manager of people and resources.  It takes a certain ability to deal with both ends of a large organization effectively; one end seems to want to bite you and the other end wants to crap on you.  

As for my initial ER.  Yes, it was for a lot of management related reasons.  I left a lot on the table to leave and move across the country but I would do it again in a heartbeat.  

 

[Lazarus]

I watched many many junior officers & enlisted leave the service because they "didn't want to risk having another CO like that EVER".

I'd try to tell them about all the great things they could look forward to... but they'd already been watching what my job was like and it was tough to change their minds.

In late 2001 an admiral visited a major base, had a mandatory meeting with several hundred JO submariners, and decided to administer a little tough love. He admonished them "You guys can't expect to just leave the Navy in today's market and make the same kind of money out there that you're making here. This is the only job in the world where you can make more than $100K/year with only five years' experience."

One of the JOs raised his hand and said "Sir, my wife makes more than that now." Then he asked for a show of hands and a dozen others went up.

That was the end of that retention meeting...

What rank would it require to make $100K/year in with five years service?

 

[frayne]

Jug, could you please provide links to the boards you moderate dealing with this issue ?

 

[Nords]

What rank would it require to make $100K/year in with five years service?

It ain't the rank, it's the lifestyle.  Every O-3 earns the same basic pay but some duty assignments "reward" better than others.

A Navy lieutenant (O-3) with five years of service earns $4297.50/month in 2006.  Some of this money, up to $1250/month, is probably going into the TSP, the federal govts' unmatched tax-deferred version of a 401(k).  The rest of the pay is fully taxable.

Then there's "bonus money".  When I joined the submarine force in 1982 as a lowly O-1 ensign I was awarded a $3000 signing bonus (before taxes).  When I passed the training schools in 1984, almost a lieutenant junior grade, I got another $3000 bonus (before taxes).  When finished my initial five-year obligation in 1987 as a lieutenant, I was given a choice-- $7200 at the end of every year that I stayed around, or a contract (3, 4, or 5 years) at $10K/year paid up front.  After taxes this bonus money, of course, went straight into the retirement portfolio.

Today that bonus contract prices at $25K/year.  The Navy is telling Congress that it  needs to be raised to $30K/year.  There's even crazy talk about depositing the bonus in member's TSP accounts to boost its tax-deferred compounding.

Then we start playing the "military compensation" game.  First is the officer's non-taxable "basic allowance for subsistence" (food), about $180/month.  But if you're eating your meals on board a seagoing vessel then you have to pay that $180/month for your food.  Otherwise it's yours to keep!

Next there's the "basic allowance for housing", also tax-free.  It varies dramatically with location at the "average" rental cost.  For a single officer in San Diego it's $1800/month for rent+utilities, which Laurence will tell you is "OK".  Most single officers boost that by finding roomates.

If you're in a high-cost area you might get an additional COLA.  That's a complicated magic (political?) formula that also varies with location.  In Hawaii an O-3 would get $360/month, again tax-free.

So an O-3 grosses about $36K/year taxable, another ~$15K/year tax-deferred, and roughly another $28K/year tax-free.  Throw in the $25K nuke bonus and you're over $100K. 

But wait, there's still more!  You may be eligible for submarine pay ($525/month), sea duty pay ($260/month), and possibly dive pay if you've been to the extremely rigourous school & desire the extra work($240/month).  Aviators get similar goodies and even surface-ship officers get sea pay.  If you're subject to imminent danger or hostile fire (usually a combat zone) then you get another $220/month, and if you're in a combat zone then EVERY PENNY OF PAY earned in that zone is tax-free forever.  The 2005 pay table shows how complicated this has become.  Longevity hint:  none of these pays are worth the amount of effort & risk it takes to become eligible for them.

By the way you have the weekend duty, we have a ton of repairs & maintenance that are way behind schedule and your gear is looking pretty ragged too, we're getting underway on Monday but we're having a little reactor controls problem to figure out, and you'll be standing midwatches while we spend our days running ship's drills for the next few inspections before we start our six-month Western Pacific deployment.  (If the scheduling gods smile on us we might get a portcall in Perth.)  Your family wants to know when you'll be coming home and, oh, your assignment officer says it would help to learn Farsi before he tells you your next duty station.

The Dept of Defense likes to focus on "compensation" when comparing military salaries to the "equivalent" civilian sector (whatever the heck that is).  The idea is that your military income is boosted by living in base housing (or by receiving a housing allowance to live off base), having "free" medical/dental care, shopping at commissaries/exchanges, and receiving tax-free allowances.  You can have a lot of what-if fun on the RMC calculator!

For those of you wiping the drool off your keyboard and looking up the address of your nearest recruiter, remember that I didn't join the military for the money and you shouldn't either.  The military pension is only awarded to those surviving at least their first 20 years.  Your military experience will vary from mine, and hopefully that's a good thing.

For those of you considering what your tax dollars are buying, remember that the military is earning "all of" that money so that you don't have to.

 

[Lazarus]

Interesting post. I was an E-4 in the AF. I made $850 a month when I got out. Thats Base + Seperate rations. (I was living off base.) I was offered $1,700 to reenlist in 1979. No thanks. Had I stayed in and made E-6 at 20 years I would be getting about $1,100 a month now in pension. Doesn't sound like much until you try to generate it from investments.

I have always been glad I did one enlistment. Being an Officer is a much better deal.

 

[jug]

Jug, could you please provide links to the boards you moderate dealing with this issue ?

No problem, Id be glad to, and if you have any problem you would like to run by me, I can help me, just contact me directly.

You have to understand that doing this type of work with people who have been abused at work is very taxing, since must victims of workabuse suffer exactly what victims of wife abuse suffered over 20 years ago, The police would come and call it a "family squabble"

Abuse on the psyche in any form over a long period of time makes for very unhappy campers.

So if you have a problem, contact me directly at pef260@aol.com, and maybe I can help.

Here are the sites, they are yahoo boards, so you have to join yahoo, its free and become a member

Nineveh@yahoogroups.com This one is a US based board, Im co-moderator, but lately the other moderators have family situations, so I have to jump in now and then.

the next is bullyonline@yahoogroups.com

This is a UK based group, the american group is a shoot off from this group. Both are excellent, and the phenomenom sp, of workabuse is quite new and there are excellent books out there written on how to handle it and survive it.

Jug contact if you are having a problem.

 

[frayne]

Interesting post. I was an E-4 in the AF. I made $850 a month when I got out. Thats Base + Seperate rations. (I was living off base.) I was offered $1,700 to reenlist in 1979. No thanks. Had I stayed in and made E-6 at 20 years I would be getting about $1,100 a month now in pension. Doesn't sound like much until you try to generate it from investments.

I have always been glad I did one enlistment. Being an Officer is a much better deal.

Back in 69 as a private E-1 in basic training I think I recieved $54 for my monthly stipen. This was after they deducted for my buzz cut, anyone else able to relate. They offered West Point and/or OCS on the condition I extended my enlistment, to which I only chuckled.

 

[omni550]

I was wondering is some of you out there made a decision to FIRE based on this situation.

Im sure someone here wants to FIRE due to the crap they put up with by management.

jug,

Several years ago I was working for a workaholic who was also a bit of a bully. The situation got so bad, I carved out a few minutes at work one day and counted down the workdays until I could RE. As I recall, the number was close to 1000.

I was so stressed and working such long hours, I rarely had time to assess my situation other than to realize I wasn't happy. After a health scare that resulted in surgery and 6 weeks off to recuperate, I finally had the downtime to clearly see my situation. Upon my return to work, I immediately requested a transfer to another department. Several months later, I was transferred and cannot believe how much better my worklife and worklife balance is. Low to no stress. 

In fact, when in the bullying, stress-filled situation  I was originally targeting to RE in Dec. 2005. Now I'm thinking of hanging around until Dec. 2008 to bulk-up the pension. What a difference a boss makes.

So, in response to your question, management crap can have a huge impact on whether or not to RE.

omni

 

[Nords]

I think I recieved $54 for my monthly stipen.

Here's a link to military pay tables between 1949-2004.

 

[jug]

jug,

Several years ago I was working for a workaholic who was also a bit of a bully.
I was so stressed and working such long hours, I rarely had time to assess my situation other than to realize I wasn't happy. After a health scare that resulted in surgery and 6 weeks off to recuperate, I finally had the downtime to clearly see my situation. Upon my return to work, I immediately requested a transfer to another department. Several months later, I was transferred and cannot believe how much better my worklife and worklife balance is. Low to no stress. 

In fact, when in the bullying, stress-filled situation  I was originally targeting to RE in Dec. 2005. Now I'm thinking of hanging around until Dec. 2008 to bulk-up the pension. What a difference a boss makes.

So, in response to your question, management crap can have a huge impact on whether or not to RE.

omni

This is a very good post, and an honest one at that. Most people in the workforce will deny there is any bullying going on or that they themselves may actually be bullying others. Most just lay low and suffer silently as their innards are eaten up.

Only one abusive person in my worksite has actually apologized for his nasty behavior. He was an alcoholic and I guess he had to make amends with those he may have abused.

The rest are totally blind to it,and the fact that you had a health scare does not move them one inch in the sympathy department. There are alot of mean Sob's in this world causing many to ER.

Probably the best thing that can happen to one that is abused is to get geographically away from the abuser. Just looking at their face knowing they almost got away with murder can eat you up inside.

Now you know why some people go "postal", they've been messed around with at work, but this story never makes the papers, for it would ruin the system the way it exists today.

For management to make an attempt to quell any abuse by their peers on subordinates would disrupt the power structure and send the message that things are softening a bit. This is why you never or rarely ever see justice in the workplace and I do believe this is a very hidden reason for ER.

In my own situation, Im just burned out, since after studying workplace abuse the past several years, I fully understand the power plays, the psychology behind the abuse and through this understanding you accept what cannot be changed but then you go through a period of sadness realizing the futility of it all.

Its sad to realize most worksystems have this type of situation. You have the bullies, those scapegoated by the bullies, and the rest are the sheeple with their heads down hoping they are not next.

So to ER is to leave work with the idea of never being beholden to any human being again, and to re-enter the workplace at one's whim very conscious of the little games played by the little Hitlers with no clothes. To me its like re-booting your puter when things get stuck.

Once you know the story inside out, you can then stick your tongue inside your cheek and sort of smile to yourself when your superior orders you around as though you are some slave. I look forward to someone berating me, and I simply look back at him and say "no sh-t"!!!!

It will be interesting getting other jobs and observing this all from afar. In my case, I will probably go through many jobs, but since I am FIRE, it doesnt matter.

I always wanted a smorgesbord of jobs anyhow.
jug

 

[tryan]

Spent 10 years working for a jack-@ss. Eventually he burned too many bridges and was unpromotable. So he left. And I took his position. Later found out he was laid-off from the job he took and started "consulting" out of his house. I think he went from unpromotable to unemployable.

Moral of the story is that fate will eventually catch up with a jack-@ss. Hang in there.

 

[jug]

Spent 10 years working for a jack-@ss.  Eventually he burned too many bridges and was unpromotable.  So he left.  And I took his position.  Later found out he was laid-off from the job he took and started "consulting" out of his house.  I think he went from unpromotable to unemployable.

Moral of the story is that fate will eventually catch up with a jack-@ss.  Hang in there.

A class A jackass without the support of his peers or co-managers will be set out to dry by management, this happened to the alcoholic manager I had many years ago, he had no support.

However, those managers that can easily cover up their dirty deeds by keeping a squeaky clean exterior and sucking up to their own bosses, will usually get away with murder in the workplace.

My bully girl was that type, she had the charming image and had full support of management. When I complained about her rude behavior to HR, she throw a religious article of mine off of my table", they told me to settle it with her boss. He simply said lets all forget about it and get on with things.

Had the same offense been committed by non-management type, they would have been hung out to dry with disciplinary action filed against.

Being a union steward, I got involved with my union after the bullying attemtps on me, I went to Human Resourses and advised them that any loud yelling or screaming at any of my workers will be answered not by me, but by a call to the NYPD who will be advised by myself that so and so member of management was harrassing and intimidating one of my members, and that I would request that such manager be placed under arrest for such offense and let the NY Court system sort it out. The HR people were stunned when I said, they've never heard anyone tell them this before.

Needless to say, in the past 5 years after I let HR know my intentions, there has not been one case of yelling at any worker in my place. I am on the sh-t list in this government agency, but I stopped the verbal abuse. I know their moves before they know them, having studied their MO's for the past 6 years.

Management hates me, they ask me when I will retire, I just smile and say, "when I feel like it" Im currently in the rubber gun squad collecting almost 90 k a year drinking cawfee and bored as hell and look forward to ER.

Its union politics that is basically making things uncomfortable.
jug

 

[sgeeeee]

. . . Moral of the story is that fate will eventually catch up with a jack-@ss.  Hang in there.

This is a nice thought . . . but it's not true. I know many jack-@ss executives that managed to reach escape velocity and will never suffer the painful heat of re-entry. And I also know extremely talented leaders who were crushed by executive treachery and chose to withdraw to comfortable positions outside the range of the @ssholes.

Sometimes the dragon wins.

 

[Brat]

Sometimes the dragon wins.

Winning is finding your own peace. 

 

[jug]

Winning is finding your own peace. 

Bingo!, the essence of FIRE is the inner peace that comes with it, no money can buy it, its intangible, and if you can achieve that, ER even at a very low annual income can be very pleasant indeed.

Inner peace is having the "hole" inside of you filled and sated.

Im with you Brat, you understand the "light".
Shalom Alechiem
jug

 

[sgeeeee]

Winning is finding your own peace. 

I'm comfortable with this definition. I think most of us learn to satisfy ourselves rather than try to satisfy others by the time we reach adulthood -- if not much earlier. But I think it would be a mistake to believe that the jack-@sses we are talking about don't believe that they have found that too. My point is complementary to yours: that you need to find your own peace is clear. But it is also important that you don't have a need to believe that the @ssholes get what they deserve. Sometimes they don't get what they deserve and that is what I meant by, "Sometimes the dragon wins." Some people live a charmed existance even while they are making other's lives difficult. It happens. Stick with finding your own peace rather than waiting on the world to take care of the jack-@sses.