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Old 06-23-2010, 12:35 PM   #521
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I think you are arguing about what life should be like versus what life is really like.

Just because the government passes a new rule does not mean that everyone is (will be) compliant. Life is a lot more complex than that.
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:41 PM   #522
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Around here... following the law... they can cite them for a 'violation', but once fixed they are allowed to open again... I do not think they can permanently close someone down... (at least here)... repeat violations or not...
Maybe, but I'd bet a serious inspector would find that his schedule was suddenly very full, and he might not be able to get back to their place for an inspection for a few days, weeks...? A restaurant can't last long with their doors closed and a "Health Inspector" sign on the front door. They'll be out of business one way or the other.

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RE: ERD50 comment - And what is your term for the Health Department inspector that does not shut down a restaurant despite repeated violations?

That he or she is not one of my students
How predictably evasive!

OK, assuming none of your students ever made it to work for MMS (I'm certain you track the career of each and every one)....

What action do you think should be taken towards regulation of off-shore drilling? I agree with you that we can only trust the businesses so far. I'll even go first, with the caveat that I am not a lawyer, so some of this may be restricted by Fed/State laws...

I'm guessing that these are far enough off-shore to be a federal jurisdiction, the states have no say (other than 'pretty please, Mr Fed')? Well, since the Gulf states take the brunt of the damage, if I were Gov or Atty General of a Gulf State, I'd want some say in the matter.

Maybe the Gulf States form a group to 'oversee the overseers'? One of the first things I'd do if I were part of that group is to set up requirements for a containment plan, so when all else fails, there are procedures and equipment to contain and clean up the damage within hours of it being detected.

edit/add - just out of curiosity, I went to the MMS website to learn more about them...

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The New Bureau of Ocean Energy Management, Regulation, and Enforcement (BOE) Web Site is Under Construction
Shades of 1984 (taking the cynics view)?

-ERD50
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:46 PM   #523
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Maybe, but I'd bet a serious inspector would find that his schedule was suddenly very full, and he might not be able to get back to their place for an inspection for a few days, weeks...? A restaurant can't last long with their doors closed and a "Health Inspector" sign on the front door. They'll be out of business one way or the other.



How predictably evasive!

OK, assuming none of your students ever made it to work for MMS (I'm certain you track the career of each and every one)....

What action do you think should be taken towards regulation of off-shore drilling? I agree with you that we can only trust the businesses so far. I'll even go first, with the caveat that I am not a lawyer, so some of this may be restricted by Fed/State laws...

I'm guessing that these are far enough off-shore to be a federal jurisdiction, the states have no say (other than 'pretty please, Mr Fed')? Well, since the Gulf states take the brunt of the damage, if I were Gov or Atty General of a Gulf State, I'd want some say in the matter.

Maybe the Gulf States form a group to 'oversee the overseers'? One of the first things I'd do if I were part of that group is to set up requirements for a containment plan, so when all else fails, there are procedures and equipment to contain and clean up the damage within hours of it being detected.

-ERD50
I have pioneered the analysis of internal regulators in companies who have access to all levels of the company and a direct legal obligation to report to appropriate public regulatory authorities. There are versions of this type of regulatory system in many different places. Dams and Elevators are among the most common. Another , although somewhat more difficult in some contexts, are private third party regulators who conduct regular inspections. the second group requires a lot of
"conflict of interest" prevention.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:21 PM   #524
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Just a comment. Reading several of Emeritus's post, and based on the number of times he has use 'I have .......' he is clearly the most experienced guy on the board, having done just about everything in question. Wow. I never knew.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:51 PM   #525
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Just a comment. Reading several of Emeritus's post, and based on the number of times he has use 'I have .......' he is clearly the most experienced guy on the board, having done just about everything in question. Wow. I never knew.
Yet, he seems to have trouble actually answering the question? I guess that comes with experience.

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Old 06-23-2010, 03:52 PM   #526
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Yet, he seems to have trouble actually answering the question? I guess that comes with experience.

-ERD50
I'll answer a question when one is asked that can be answered . A speech or an assertion does not become a question just because you end it with a question mark.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:13 PM   #527
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I'll answer a question when one is asked that can be answered . A speech or an assertion does not become a question just because you end it with a question mark.
I asked: What action do you think should be taken towards regulation of off-shore drilling?


I honestly think that is a straightforward question, not a speech. And I am honestly interested in your answer, whether you really are a Professor Emeritus (which I believe you are, not that it makes any difference here), or a kid typing from your bedroom in the basement.

But please use small words, I ain't all that edgy-kated, even anonymously on the inter-webs.

-ERD50
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:19 PM   #528
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But please use small words, I ain't all that edgy-kated, even anonymously on the inter-webs.

-ERD50
And if you use big ones, ie. three syllables, try to spell them correctly so I can look them up in the dictionary.
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Since the time of the Titanic Congressional hearings have been used to drag information out of recalcitrant wrongdoers. Its the only way to nail down the facts before the purjurors get together to coordinate the lies.
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:24 PM   #529
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Do you suppose it would be possible to disagree without being disagreeable?
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:28 PM   #530
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:37 PM   #531
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I'll answer a question when one is asked that can be answered . A speech or an assertion does not become a question just because you end it with a question mark.
Asked once before, never got an answer- what successful companies can you offer as shining examples of your unique perception of corporate responsibility, with perfect product and personnel safety records, perpetual product improvement with lifetime retroactive product upgrades, cradle-to-grave warranties, and minty fresh breath? You know, the folks that don't need the new sheriff in town puttin' his boots on their necks?

Third time's a charm, counselor. Just a couple of names off the top of your head. With your wealth of experience, high-level testimony, and swarms of indoctrinated students out there preaching the gospel and policing the miscreants, surely there must be quite a few companies out there that got the message by now...
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Old 06-24-2010, 05:59 AM   #532
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What doubt?
The doubt brought into any operation when humans are involved. The doubt that was introduced through the successful arguing of lawyers in court. The reason it takes four hours to process the simple misdemeanor of a DUI. The doubt that maybe the new clerk ordered a 4567/3 preventer instead of the 4567/2 preventer. The doubt that the guy in the warehouse picked up the 4567/7 preventer instead of the 4567/2. The doubt that someone along the way simply misread the paper work.

Absolutely those errors should be caught by the company, but if they aren't then who will catch them? It is no different than the wrong car thread on here. The car dealership should have had processes in place to make sure the correct paperwork and the correct car was delivered but somehow it wasn't. That is why the government gives a "warning" first. The fine can be graduated so that repeat offenders are fined more than a company that has an error once or twice in a decade.
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:18 AM   #533
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The doubt brought into any operation when humans are involved. The doubt that was introduced through the successful arguing of lawyers in court. The reason it takes four hours to process the simple misdemeanor of a DUI. The doubt that maybe the new clerk ordered a 4567/3 preventer instead of the 4567/2 preventer. The doubt that the guy in the warehouse picked up the 4567/7 preventer instead of the 4567/2. The doubt that someone along the way simply misread the paper work.

Absolutely those errors should be caught by the company, but if they aren't then who will catch them? It is no different than the wrong car thread on here. The car dealership should have had processes in place to make sure the correct paperwork and the correct car was delivered but somehow it wasn't. That is why the government gives a "warning" first. The fine can be graduated so that repeat offenders are fined more than a company that has an error once or twice in a decade.
Doubt over the reason is not equal to doubt over the effect. That is why the law has had strict liability since the code of Hammurabi . If your car is under warranty you don't care why it doesn't work. Liability for oil spills is strict.
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:27 AM   #534
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Asked once before, never got an answer- what successful companies can you offer as shining examples of your unique perception of corporate responsibility, with perfect product and personnel safety records, perpetual product improvement with lifetime retroactive product upgrades, cradle-to-grave warranties, and minty fresh breath? You know, the folks that don't need the new sheriff in town puttin' his boots on their necks?

Third time's a charm, counselor. Just a couple of names off the top of your head. With your wealth of experience, high-level testimony, and swarms of indoctrinated students out there preaching the gospel and policing the miscreants, surely there must be quite a few companies out there that got the message by now...

I answered the speech. It was not a question. The fact that we cant get perfection does not ever mean we have to tolerate shitty awful, in class or companies. Companies, countries and industries range from the pretty good to the shitty awful. And yes I have over 35 years experience examining safety regulation in a number of countries all over over the world. I've chaired international conferences on safety regulation. I'm organizing one right now. I teach engineering system failure and how the regulatory system interacts with the design process.
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:34 AM   #535
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I asked: What action do you think should be taken towards regulation of off-shore drilling?


I honestly think that is a straightforward question, not a speech. And I am honestly interested in your answer, whether you really are a Professor Emeritus (which I believe you are, not that it makes any difference here), or a kid typing from your bedroom in the basement.

But please use small words, I ain't all that edgy-kated, even anonymously on the inter-webs.
-ERD50

I believe a posted an answer but it may be lost in cyberspace. I claim no expertise n drilling as such. But in all such cases you need on site regulation of some form and you need a corporate safety culture that BP lacks. It's no different from controlling MRSA in hospitals. BPs failed safety culture was the subject of several investigations after the Texas city disaster.http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_inte...nel_report.pdf

The company is simply a disaster waiting to happen
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:35 AM   #536
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And Mr. Pompous goes on:

And yes I have over 35 years experience examining safety regulation in a number of countries all over over the world. I've chaired international conferences on safety regulation. I'm organizing one right now. I teach engineering system failure and how the regulatory system interacts with the design process. In addition to safety regulation I taught Consumer protection law for many years.

I've been a witness in congressional hearings.

I wrote the chapter on safe design for the first year students.

I've taught Technical safety regulation for 35 years

As an academic lawyer married to a physician working with lots of PhDs

I teach, write research articles, give presentations and play chess.

I certainly teach the difference between malum in se and malum prohibitum. I also teach engineering ethics in comparison to legal and medical ethics.

I am an attorney by training and Professor Emeritus in an Engineering school where I still teach law and ethics and design safety to engineers.

I've been an attorney for 34 years and trained a lot of investigators and regulators.

I did a Sabbatical in health care information systems in the USA and Europe

I just finished writing the first exam for my students. The topic is regulating the safety of aircraft flying through volcanic ash

I was unemployed and deeply in debt.

have known Bill Clinton since College.

35 years of teaching at a first class State University convinces me that

I did my first Retirement plan 18 years before I took Emeritus status.

I've been teaching at the University level for 35 years. Never ever used a multiple choice or similar exam.

Ok We've used RVs before

We were in Annapolis last Saturday with a couple of European Volcano refugees

I'm an academic.

I have been a volcano refugee in Frankfurt for the last 5 days.

I'm Professor Emeritus



And this was only from the first couple of lines from his post! If not a troll what. Why do people keep this guy in business. It is the ignore list for me.
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:36 AM   #537
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Just a comment. Reading several of Emeritus's post, and based on the number of times he has use 'I have .......' he is clearly the most experienced guy on the board, having done just about everything in question. Wow. I never knew.
We happen to be discussing the field in which I have spent my entire career.
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:43 AM   #538
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Unfortunately for you, all these did not come from this thread. My brother, also an academic doctor, was called 'An intellectual snob'. After he left the academic environment he later said 'You know, I have to agree with mother, I was'. It is not your discussion, but the intellectual snobbery that is my reason for putting you on my ignore list.
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:44 AM   #539
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And Mr. Pompous goes on:

And yes I have over 35 years experience It is the ignore list for me.
Feel free
whatever

Ad hominem attacks are best delivered anonymously
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:57 AM   #540
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Doubt over the reason is not equal to doubt over the effect. That is why the law has had strict liability since the code of Hammurabi . If your car is under warranty you don't care why it doesn't work. Liability for oil spills is strict.
In case you missed it, I am talking about PREVENTING the spills by improving the inspection process PRIOR to a catastrophe. I'm talking about issuing fines and repercussion for failure to drill in compliance with approved submitted plans. The big complaint people seem to have is that BP took shortcuts that weren't approved in their submitted plans (even though the investigation has not be concluded yet). I'm talking about fining a speeder going 10 over on the highway, and you seem to want to charge the speeder with reckless driving.
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