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One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 09:08 AM   #1
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One of the sleaziest

tactics I have ever seen:

"State investigators have linked a Republican campaign to letters sent to thousands of Orange County Hispanics warning them they could go to jail or be deported if they vote next month, a spokesman for the attorney general said."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061019/..._voting_threat
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 10:04 AM   #2
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Re: One of the sleaziest



That is wrong, wrong, wrong................. :P :P :P
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 10:07 AM   #3
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Re: One of the sleaziest

What do you propose.

Maybe a letter like...

Hey illegal Aliens, you too can vote. The laws of the US don't matter. There will be no consequences if you vote illegally. All that matters is that our side wins.

So go vote for those dem candidates and well raise the taxes (even more) on those sucker Americans to give you a bigger handout !

- Yours truly Hillary
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 10:10 AM   #4
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Re: One of the sleaziest

I prefer:

Dear Evangelical Xtian:

Dr. Dobson and Rev. Falwell have decided that GWB and "Dick" Cheney are evil. That being the case, please refrain from voting next month.

Yours in Jeebus,

Rev. Heywood Jahblowme
Super-Dooper Political Prayer Team Leader
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 10:41 AM   #5
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Here's the text of the allegedly offending letter (translated into English). My emphasis added. Text from http://o-juice.blogspot.com/2006/10/...n-in-34th.html

"Greetings,
You are being sent this letter because you were recently registered to vote. If you are a citizen of the United States, we ask that you participate in the democratic process of voting.
You are advised that if your residence in this country is illegal or you are an immigrant, voting in a federal election is a crime that could result in jail time, and you will be deported for voting without having a right to do so.
At the same time, you are advised that the government of the United States is installing a new computer system to verify the names of all new registered voters that vote in the October and November elections. Anti-immigration organizations can ask for information from this new computer system.
Unlike Mexico, here there is no incentive to vote. There is not a voter registration card in the United States. Therefore, it is useless and dangerous to vote in any election if you are not a citizen of the United States.
Do not listen to any politician that tells you the opposite. They are only looking out for their own interests. They only want to win elections without any regard to what happens to you.
Sincerely,

Sergio Ramirez"

I'd like to see the Spanish language original letter, since a potentially inaccurate translation may have lost some of the intent or meaning.

The letter repeatedly attempts to state that citizens won't have a problem with voting. The letter erred in that it should have included the phrase "permanent resident alien/"green card" holder" prior to the word "immigrant" in the phrase "You are advised that if your residence in this country is illegal or you are an immigrant...". Permanent resident aliens (commonly called green card holders) are NOT allowed to vote in federal elections but can stay in the country on a permanent basis (in times of good behavior).

The bit about a "Unlike Mexico, here there is no incentive to vote. There is not a voter registration card in the United States." is likely included to inform recent Mexican immigrants (illegal/visa holders, or green card holders) that things are different in the US. In Mexico, the predominant form of identification is the "Credencial Para Votar" (Voter ID card) provided by the Instituto Federal Electoral. It's just like a driver's license in the US. People register to vote in Mexico so they can get their ID card. I guess some recent Mexican immigrants assumed they would get a similar card issued by the US govt if they registered to vote (illegally) here.
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 10:53 AM   #6
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Whaddaya know, another fake brouhaha.
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 01:06 PM   #7
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Dood
Whaddaya know, another fake brouhaha.
Not sure it's fake - just an incompetently drafted letter. There's also wiggle words in the article Brewer linked to (just in case they are dead wrong).

"The Los Angeles Times and The Orange County Register both reported Thursday that the investigation appeared to be focused on the campaign of Tan D. Nguyen, a Republican"

First, the yahoo article cites two other newspapers but doesn't say what their conclusions are based upon. And "appeared" and "focused"? Definite concrete phraseology if I've ever seen any. : Maybe Dan Rather will pop up if they are wrong and exclaim how they can no longer stand by the journalistic integrity of the news report.
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 01:11 PM   #8
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Is the DA a Democrat?
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 01:13 PM   #9
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
What do you propose.

Maybe a letter like...

Hey illegal Aliens, you too can vote. The laws of the US don't matter. There will be no consequences if you vote illegally. All that matters is that our side wins.

So go vote for those dem candidates and well raise the taxes (even more) on those sucker Americans to give you a bigger handout !

- Yours truly Hillary
I don't know about the Hillary part, but here in Chicago organizing illegals and getting them to the polls is standard practice, well known, and has been going on for years. Currently, the ethniticity of most of the illegal voters is Hispanic, but in earlier decades it would have been the current wave of European illegals. The only real difference is that the numbers are so much larger today as the waves of Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. primarily arrived legally thorugh Ellis Island.

But, in any case, nothing new. Just the same old stuff.
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 01:20 PM   #10
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
Not sure it's fake - just an incompetently drafted letter. There's also wiggle words in the article Brewer linked to (just in case they are dead wrong).

"The Los Angeles Times and The Orange County Register both reported Thursday that the investigation appeared to be focused on the campaign of Tan D. Nguyen, a Republican"

First, the yahoo article cites two other newspapers but doesn't say what their conclusions are based upon. And "appeared" and "focused"? Definite concrete phraseology if I've ever seen any. : Maybe Dan Rather will pop up if they are wrong and exclaim how they can no longer stand by the journalistic integrity of the news report.
Racist!!
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 01:24 PM   #11
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Dood
Racist!!
I think we are all a little racist, if we are being truthful with ourselves.
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 01:48 PM   #12
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
I don't know about the Hillary part, but here in Chicago organizing illegals and getting them to the polls is standard practice, well known, and has been going on for years. Currently, the ethniticity of most of the illegal voters is Hispanic, but in earlier decades it would have been the current wave of European illegals. The only real difference is that the numbers are so much larger today as the waves of Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. primarily arrived legally thorugh Ellis Island.
It happens everywhere. My local Voter Registrar testified before Congress on the issue and said that they get reports all the time of non-citizens voting in elections. But, unless someone does make that report there is no way to know who was lying when they checked the yes box next to the question about citizenship. He mentioned two incidents, one involving a Norwegian and another a Brazillian, who were found to have registered and voted in local, state and federal elections. One was discovered by a reporter researching a story and the other because she got picked for jury duty (from voter registration rolls) and claimed that she did not have to appear because she was ineligible due to the fact that she was not a citizen.
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 02:12 PM   #13
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Report skeptical of fraud at polls
Little evidence found despite pending bills
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition...lede11.art.htm

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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 02:19 PM   #14
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Report skeptical of fraud at polls
Little evidence found despite pending bills
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition...lede11.art.htm

Its all Clinton's fault!
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 02:20 PM   #15
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Re: One of the sleaziest

If there's so much fraud going on, why are so many people opposed to making people actually IDENTIFY themselves at the polls?
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 02:23 PM   #16
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
If there's so much fraud going on, why are so many people opposed to making people actually IDENTIFY themselves at the polls?
Uhhhhh......like maybe they want the fraud to go on? Just a guess.

BTW, I agree that identification should not be a requirement to vote. While I carry a wallet-full of id every other day, it's fun to forget my wallet on election day and get to vote anyway.
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 02:28 PM   #17
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Report skeptical of fraud at polls
Little evidence found despite pending bills
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition...lede11.art.htm

Yeah what bothers me more than outright in-person fraud (which no doubt occurs, orchestrated by local party machines, but which is probably not widespread and should be contollable anyway), is the rush to electronic machines that may have no back-up (eg PAPER) means of verifying the vote; it has already been shown possible to manipulate the recorded votes via web hacking.

If we don't have the means to maintain the integrity of the vote - well, we have nothing.
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 02:29 PM   #18
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobot
Yeah what bothers me more than outright in-person fraud (which no doubt occurs, orchestrated by local party machines, but which is probably not widespread and should be contollable anyway), is the rush to electronic machines that may have no back-up (eg PAPER) means of verifying the vote; it has already been shown possible to manipulate the recorded votes via web hacking.

If we don't have the means to maintain the integrity of the vote - well, we have nothing.
Sounds like the "Man of the Year" movie . . .
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 02:51 PM   #19
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
If there's so much fraud going on, why are so many people opposed to making people actually IDENTIFY themselves at the polls?
People do have to identify themselves at the polls. They are required to state their name and current address. If their name and address are not recorded in and consistent with the voter registration book, they must vote a provisional ballot that is checked and validated or eliminated at a later date. In order to vote illegally at the polling place, someone would have to have lived in a home or apartment in the voting district and registered to vote so that their name and address would be in the book. Or, if they knew the name and adress of someone else who had registered but was not going to vote, they could lie and get the real voter's ballot. They would also have to forge the real voter's signature. This could be dangerous since the poll workers are the voter's neighbors and one of them might know the real voter. Also, if the real voter had filed an absentee ballot, that would be recorded in the voter registration book and the liar would be exposed. The only other way someone could vote illegally would be if the poll workers chose to stuff the ballot box by voting ballots of voters who did not show up. They would have to forge signatures of those voters and check them off in the voter registration book. This would require at least three poll workers to conspire together and to hide their conspiracy from the remaining workers.

Requiring an ID doesn't really make voter fraud more difficult than it is today. If a person comes to the polling place without a voter ID, they are still allowed to vote. That is a federal requirement. They simply have to vote a provisional ballot. That provisional ballot is examined later and if the person's name is on the voter registration books with the correct address, then the provisional ballot is accepted and counted. The provisional ballot does take much longer to process, so it does cost us more. That is one of the real impacts of most of the voter ID laws that are being passed. They raise the cost of elections.

I've worked as either a marshall or an inspector at the polls for the last several years. Most voters do not have a voter registration card with them when they come to vote. People often show up because they were passing the polling place on their way to somewhere else and noticed the signs. Requiring a voter ID would eliminate a lot of these people from voting. I'm not sure how that would help our election process. Some people would misplace their voter registration card and would not vote. I'm not sure how that would help our election process.

I've never seen any indication of voter fraud in the year's I've worked the polls. I've never seen any studies that indicate voter fraud is really a problem. I have seen what it takes to process a provisional ballot vs a standard ballot. And I have seen who shows up at the polls without registration ID.
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Re: One of the sleaziest
Old 10-19-2006, 03:02 PM   #20
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Re: One of the sleaziest

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
standard ballot. And I have seen who shows up at the polls without registration ID.
Since it is not required to show registration ID, and you are not supposed to ask for it, how is it that you have seen who shows up at the polls without it?
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