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Old 11-22-2010, 06:55 PM   #61
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I'm not sure I totally understand Bestwifeever's argument, but I agree with her conclusion.
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:02 PM   #62
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It is getting kinda difficult to follow all of this. To the OP, you need to be as defensive (and cooperative) as possible, if it is at all possible to do both. A lot of good advice has come from this thread. I have been interviewed by the boss's boss in similar situations at least twice over the last 34 years (and possibly more times in stealth mode when I did not realize it was happening), and in hindsight, it was (in my opinion) an exercise by management to determine who to keep. I survived both, but I don't know by how much, and for the possibly stealth ones, have no idea. Good luck and let us know how it goes for you.
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:43 PM   #63
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Executive summary :

GerbilWheel GW has
Boss A who is new and is busy doing other things, who has
Boss B who is bad, who has
Boss C who wants to talk to GW about Boss B because Executive Assistant EA told him GW is not happy--so GW might be seen as complaining directly to his boss's boss's boss about his boss's boss.

That just can't be a good thing.
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:51 PM   #64
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The meeting did not happen today...probably tomorrow...stay tuned...
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:16 AM   #65
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If you give examples, give them on a "facts only" basis, no emotions or conclusions attached. If possible, use examples where evidence is documented.

Let BB draw her own conclusions from the facts.
If she is able to take action, she is also able to draw conclusions. If not, be it so.

And make sure to store the evidence outside of the office before bad boss returns and draws HIS conclusions.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:27 PM   #66
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Well, no meeting today either...and BB had the perfect opportunity because after we wrapped up a conference call together in her office, she sent me on my way without mentioning anything about the issue.

I am beginning to wonder if BB is expecting me to initiate the conversation...in which case I am just going to ignore the situation, keep my head down and discreetly job hunt. Should I speak to EA to clarify who is expected to initiate the meeting? "BB wants to talk to you next week" were her words. No....I think I will just ignore this and hope it goes away.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:53 PM   #67
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My vote is to NOT throw the boss under the bus. I doubt any long term good can come of it and you never know where your path may cross with this boss again.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:57 PM   #68
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My vote is to NOT throw the boss under the bus. I doubt any long term good can come of it and you never know where your path may cross with this boss again.
I agree with this advice as well, unless the boss is commiting some crime, or is totally, demonstratively incompetent or is so rude and offensive that his behavior clearly violates the standards or culture of the organization. If this is simply a case of someone with an extremely terrrible bedside manner, I'd let it go -- his bedside manner should be obvious to anyone in the office. Obviously, he must have done something right in the past to be in the position he now occupies, right?

I think your EA is on a head-hunting mission and you might be a pawn in the process.

There's a time and place to throw someone under the bus -- I don't think this even comes close to that situation. Many of us have had bosses from hell or toxic colleagues -- you adjust and deal with them, and if it gets real bad, you move.
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:40 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Gerbil Wheel View Post
Well, no meeting today either...and BB had the perfect opportunity because after we wrapped up a conference call together in her office, she sent me on my way without mentioning anything about the issue.

I am beginning to wonder if BB is expecting me to initiate the conversation...in which case I am just going to ignore the situation, keep my head down and discreetly job hunt. Should I speak to EA to clarify who is expected to initiate the meeting? "BB wants to talk to you next week" were her words. No....I think I will just ignore this and hope it goes away.
See rule #3.

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1) Trust No One
2) Deny Everything
3) If you ignore a problem long enough it will go away
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:01 PM   #70
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STILL no request to meet from BB...I am hoping it's over or forgotten...or something like that.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:26 PM   #71
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I think that's the best approach. Let sleeping dogs lie.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:19 PM   #72
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Is this like the Catholic priest situation? "I don't want to rock the boat, let the other guy do it." People get hurt when good people don't speak up. Bad people doing bad things must be brought to light because bullies continue to bully when we stay silent.

I worked for a dishonest CEO bully in a start up. I went to a member of the BOD and told him the CEO was a crook and a bully. They listened to him instead of me and it cost them millions of their own money. DH and I were the first laid off when times got tough but I never regretted trying to warn them. It was the right thing to do. When I got a call a year ago from a headhunter involved with the placement of bully boss in a new position, I told him the truth which was the boss was dishonest and a bully. He got my name through his own research because the story bully boss was telling didn't quite add up.

I don't know whether other start up folks also told the truth about bully boss but my conscience was clear that no one would lose money and no one would be tormented because I did not have the courage to tell the truth.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:28 PM   #73
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Is this like the Catholic priest situation? "I don't want to rock the boat, let the other guy do it." People get hurt when good people don't speak up. Bad people doing bad things must be brought to light because bullies continue to bully when we stay silent.

I worked for a dishonest CEO bully in a start up. I went to a member of the BOD and told him the CEO was a crook and a bully. They listened to him instead of me and it cost them millions of their own money. DH and I were the first laid off when times got tough but I never regretted trying to warn them. It was the right thing to do. When I got a call a year ago from a headhunter involved with the placement of bully boss in a new position, I told him the truth which was the boss was dishonest and a bully. He got my name through his own research because the story bully boss was telling didn't quite add up.

I don't know whether other start up folks also told the truth about bully boss but my conscience was clear that no one would lose money and no one would be tormented because I did not have the courage to tell the truth.

Sounds a lot like Karma in the works here

Had a similar situation, but in a much smaller context. Have a SIL who used to work for HR at a place who interviewed a jerk applicant who listed the same place of work which I worked at. When she saw inquired about the applicant's character, it sure felt good giving her my opinion about what a bad applicant he is and in now way hire him.

Sometimes things to balance out.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:14 AM   #74
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Your situation sounds very similar to one the DW had a few months ago. One of her subordinates came to her about the hostile work environment. The DW being the persons manager listened and knew exactly what her subordinate was talking about. Due to the verbiage her subordinate used the DW went to HR to discuss the situation in an unofficial capacity. HR advised her that they had receive many unofficial complaints about her boss, but since nobody would make an official complaint nothing could be done. Since the DW doesn't need the job, she decided to put it out to her subordinates that she was collecting letters for HR about the bad work environment. She let them know that they could write up anything they wanted and make it anonymous if they wished. She told her subordinates to place anything they wish to write up in a sealed envelope and either give it to her or come up with one of the co-workers to take up a collection, but either way she would walk any letters given to her to HR on a specific date. Before the date arrived her BB came to her office and started asking questions (there's a mole in HR). Her BB said he had talked with the three other managers in the department and they all said about the same thing. The DW did check with the other managers and the BB's story as confirmed. Once all of the letters were turned in and a formal complaint was made the BB met with the DW and asked for her recommendation (fire the boss or put her on an improvement plan). The DW seeing an opportunity to keep things civil said she thinks and improvement plan would be the better of the two choices. The end result things have marginally improved. The DW's boss was promoted in the latest reorganization, and the DW received a pay raise so she almost makes as much as some of her subordinates on a yearly basis. Hourly she is still $3-4 per hour behind just about all of her subordinates.

A little background on the DW's job. She works in a mortgage department at a large local bank. She is a first line manager who works approx 50 hours per week during the work week. She also frequently brings her computer home on the weekends so she can complete her work for the week. She has asked several times for an increase in personnel, because she has become the dumping ground for a lot of small jobs. All requests have been denied. One person (not in the DW's line of supervision) has received three promotions this year. The increased responsibility for those promotions gets dumped on the DW because the person receiving the promotions doesn't have time to do her job. The hierarchy at her work is supposed to be more of the military style, but the way it has worked is anybody who is in a higher position has been able to tell anybody in a lower position what to do. This has led to conflicting directions, procedures, and processes in the same office. The organization is not that large in the grand scheme of things, but they officially have three different processes for doing one job, one for each center.
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:35 AM   #75
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Well, no meeting today either...
...in which case I am just going to ignore the situation, keep my head down and discreetly job hunt. Should I speak to EA to clarify who is expected to initiate the meeting? NO "BB wants to talk to you next week" were her words. No....I think I will just ignore this and hope it goes away.
I'll reiterate my original recommendation. If you're job hunting, I can't see any upside to meeting with BB now even if she initiaties a meeting - and a huge potential downside. Save it for your exit interview, after you've found a new job and given notice. You can share your thoughts with 'too late for me, but maybe it'll prevent another defection' as your 'motivation.'
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:47 AM   #76
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Just another thought here, if HR is involved and there is any thought of you being a malcontent or non team player, true or not, be careful. HR professionals network with other HR professionals and you never know what may come back to haunt you in the future. Nothing wrong with being honest but sometimes keeping your mouth shut is the best thing a person can do.
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Old 11-25-2010, 11:04 AM   #77
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Nothing wrong with being honest but sometimes keeping your mouth shut is the best thing a person can do.
That advice would have saved me much grief in past years!

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Old 11-25-2010, 12:09 PM   #78
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A little background on the DW's job. She works in a mortgage department at a large local bank. She is a first line manager who works approx 50 hours per week during the work week. She also frequently brings her computer home on the weekends so she can complete her work for the week. She has asked several times for an increase in personnel, because she has become the dumping ground for a lot of small jobs. All requests have been denied. One person (not in the DW's line of supervision) has received three promotions this year. The increased responsibility for those promotions gets dumped on the DW because the person receiving the promotions doesn't have time to do her job. The hierarchy at her work is supposed to be more of the military style, but the way it has worked is anybody who is in a higher position has been able to tell anybody in a lower position what to do. This has led to conflicting directions, procedures, and processes in the same office. The organization is not that large in the grand scheme of things, but they officially have three different processes for doing one job, one for each center.
It's too bad she works for the government, now if this was a real free enterprise efficiency loving private megacorp none of this nonsense would happen.
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:54 PM   #79
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........ HR professionals .............
It is funny seeing those two words used in the same sentence. In my MegaCorp experience, the last people you wanted involved, whether you were employee or management, was HR. If you were an employee, they would rat you out to your boss before you got back to your desk. If you were management, they would make you regret that you had ever even thought of involving them.
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:01 PM   #80
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It is funny seeing those two words used in the same sentence. In my MegaCorp experience, the last people you wanted involved, whether you were employee or management, was HR. If you were an employee, they would rat you out to your boss before you got back to your desk. If you were management, they would make you regret that you had ever even thought of involving them.
I pretty much agree for the most part. I did know one HR manager that was a no BS straight shooter and a real asset to employees both hourly and management. One out of probably twenty is a pretty sorry number though.
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