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Old 04-06-2011, 10:11 PM   #41
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I stopped trying to persuade or argue my points long ago.
I'd stick with that if I were you! "Because I said so" isn't very persuasive to a lot people.


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Old 04-07-2011, 06:41 AM   #42
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There is no need to present evidence. If you need that then you are not paying attention.
This seems to be part of a developing trend here on FIRE. Stay tuned for further details....
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:45 AM   #43
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I belong to sites where people feel the need to site research and discuss on a much higher level than the average person can understand. A.E. two chemists discussing the toxicity of the chemicals on produce. when it comes to that level, I junst roll my eyes and go on to the next subject. If people are going to discuss they can name some articles that prove their point, but to go into depths that no one else understands is not good.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:20 AM   #44
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I belong to sites where people feel the need to site research and discuss on a much higher level than the average person can understand.
Are you saying that the average person cannot understand that those excerpts don't support a statement that cancer rates are increasing rampantly?

We're all above average here anyway, so it's all good!

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A.E. two chemists discussing the toxicity of the chemicals on produce. when it comes to that level, I junst roll my eyes and go on to the next subject.
And when someone makes an unsubstantiated claim, and then infers I am ignorant and I just should just accept it because they do, I just roll my eyes (and try to remember that the poster takes that approach).

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If people are going to discuss they can name some articles that prove their point, but to go into depths that no one else understands is not good.
What's "not good" about it? The reader can skip it if it doesn't interest them, but that doesn't change the facts.

And making decisions on unsubstantiated claims and promoting fear mongering is good? Color me confused

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Old 04-07-2011, 08:36 AM   #45
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There is no need to present evidence. If you need that then you are not paying attention. It's pretty obvious that the standard American diet (SAD) is unhealthy. I stopped trying to persuade or argue my points long ago. I don't try to convert anyone, what I see is pretty obvious to me. Everyone around me when I worked was sick all the time or suffering with allergies. I used to eat a poor diet a long time ago and started to develop health problems and it was pretty obvious to me why. I changed my diet and for 30 years I've been free of illness and degenerative diseases that people my age are saddled with. Maybe I'm the exception, maybe I'm lucky or maybe I'm on to something. YMMV.
You are not the exception - I experienced the same thing. If you look though time and follow good old fashion wisdom like Hippocrates who fostered "the healing power of nature" good things will come. Kinda makes sense really. I changed to a Mediterranean type diet focusing on lots of raw foods and boy - I look, so people say, and feel great. I am off all med's, and my blood work is the best ever!

Interesting site below:
Hippocrates Health Institute
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:29 AM   #46
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You are not the exception - I experienced the same thing.
I've experienced that, too, as have many others who decided to become fit and start eating right. But it doesn't prove a thing, because you're not taking account of the people who improved their lifestyle, but got sick, anyway, or those who didn't improve lifestyle, but remained healthy. Just at the level of anecdote, since I follow two forums of cancer patients, I see postings from people who have recovered from cancer and attribute their recovery to exercise, to diet, to juice, to turmeric, ... you name it. But I also see postings from people relating how for decades they exercised, ate very carefully, and generally led exemplary lives; they're trying to make sense of why they got sick.

It's good that people are always looking for explanations, but sometimes, things don't make sense.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:20 PM   #47
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If you look though time and follow good old fashion wisdom like Hippocrates who fostered "the healing power of nature" good things will come.
How is Hippocrates doing these days?
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:17 AM   #48
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Are you saying that the average person cannot understand that those excerpts don't support a statement that cancer rates are increasing rampantly?

We're all above average here anyway, so it's all good!

And when someone makes an unsubstantiated claim, and then infers I am ignorant and I just should just accept it because they do, I just roll my eyes (and try to remember that the poster takes that approach).


Please present some evidence that supports that 'We're all above average here '.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:57 AM   #49
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Please present some evidence that supports that 'We're all above average here '.
I had hoped everyone recognized that as a joke, 'ala Lake Wobegon.

Although, considering that most here are concerned with or have achieved some degree of financial independence, it's probably true by some measures. By I won't profess that, or tell anyone it's obvious w/o some evidence.

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Old 04-08-2011, 09:04 AM   #50
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I'm 100% organic; that's all that matters ...
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:05 AM   #51
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Please present some evidence that supports that 'We're all above average here '.
I, for one would not participate in a forum that was any less. Heck, I do have personal standards...
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:18 AM   #52
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ALWAYS buy organic apples.......
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:23 AM   #53
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Please present some evidence that supports that 'We're all above average here '.
Over 95% of us are:
Net worth Poll
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:33 AM   #54
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I, for one would not participate in a forum that was any less. Heck, I do have personal standards...
I didn't have to lower my standards to become a member of this forum, but luckily the admins agreed to lower the standards of the forum for me to join............
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:55 PM   #55
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I didn't have to lower my standards to become a member of this forum, but luckily the admins agreed to lower the standards of the forum for me to join............
Hey, maybe they'll upgrade your membership:

Congratulations, You've Been Upgraded

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Old 04-09-2011, 08:46 PM   #56
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I was wondering if most of you step up and spend the extra money for organic procucts? Reading about Strawberries with 13 pesticides is crazy.

11 things you should buy organic on Shine
I either buy organic, buy from the local farmers market (in season), or eat produce from my own organic garden (the latter is my preference, when I can). In addition to the pesticide issue, I believe that organic/local/garden produce is simply more nutritious than the stuff that has been shipped half way around the world before it gets to your local store. Garden produce is the best, because I can harvest it and be eating it 30 minutes later......doesn't get much fresher than that, and it's also pesticide-free.
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:41 PM   #57
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Conventional farmers tend to look down on organic farmers. I personally do not. I thought this recent post by a dedicated organic grain farmer might be of interest.
Viewing a thread - What is wrong with Organic food?
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Old 04-10-2011, 03:11 AM   #58
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Organic produce tastes better. Aside from health benefits or not (being disputed here) organic farming is better for our mother earth - the inordinate amount of pesticides poured onto our soils, in the ground water, run off etc is not something we should continue doing - I'm too lazy to cite the evidence but if you want to argue there's no evidence supporting pouring pesticides everywhere isn't harming anything, I'm pretty sure I disagree with you. Some even poo poo the agri-business organic farming is fake or not as awesome as the small scale (and that is prob true too) but if the fad gets the big agri-bus's to stop or cut back on their pesticide use I'm glad about that.

I actually did study this in college but most importantly - what I learned is someone always has data to dispute your data so I'll leave the data ping pong up to others!
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:33 AM   #59
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Conventional farmers tend to look down on organic farmers.
What makes you say that? It isn't my impression at all, but it's not like I've funded a survey on it or anything. I do think that some people (farmers or not) take exception at some of the claims being made for organic.

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Organic produce tastes better.
Really? I'd challenge anyone to identify the organic produce in a blind test to some statistically significant degree. Like many others, you are probably attributing the taste to the produce being fresh and of a variety bred for taste over shipping/keeping qualities. Compare those same varieties, at the same freshness, with just "organic" being the variable, and see what you get. My garden tomatoes taste better than the store bought whether I throw "chemicals" on them or not.

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... organic farming is better for our mother earth - the inordinate amount of pesticides poured onto our soils, in the ground water, run off etc is not something we should continue doing
I honestly think the answer to this is "it depends". You mention run off, and some organic methods increase soil run off. They need to cultivate, water, wait a few weeks to let the weed seeds grow, then cultivate to kill the weeds, plant and water a second time. It is not clear that this is better for mother earth than using a herbicide. More water, less usage of that land while it sits idle (meaning more acres need to be planted, consuming more fuel, more water, more erosion...), more fuel/pollution/erosion in the added cultivation...

Some notes from the organic farmer that was linked by Avalon:


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7. We grow less gross bushels per acre on our land base than our conventional neighbours on average. ....

8. We consume a significant amount of fuel yes -
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- I'm too lazy to cite the evidence but if you want to argue there's no evidence supporting pouring pesticides everywhere isn't harming anything, I'm pretty sure I disagree with you.
How convenient!


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Old 04-10-2011, 10:29 AM   #60
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What makes you say that? It isn't my impression at all, but it's not like I've funded a survey on it or anything. I do think that some people (farmers or not) take exception at some of the claims being made for organic.
It wasn't my impression either until I began seeing some of the opinions posted by conventional farmers. I'd never given it much thought until the subject came up here and on the Ag forum at about the same time. This is an example of what I'm seeing. The discussion continues there if you're interested.
Viewing a thread - What is wrong with Organic food?

I have a rough idea of what the organic farmer faces in order to market his crop as 'organic'. They do receive more per bushel ( around $2/Bu. corn?), but I can see how their yield might at times be limited by the constraints of being organic.

I can't help but admire an organic farmer, especially one in Saskatchewan. His head wind gets even stiffer being that far from delivery points I would imagine. No telling what basis is for a region that far out. My rough guess is that it would subtract at least a dollar per bushel.

Interesting subject. Always enjoyable to learn.
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