Oriental rug Conference

[calmloki]

If any of you are into old rugs ACOR 9 is going to be in St. Louis next year. That's the American Conference on Oriental Rugs - Lots of good speakers, kinda spendy to participate, but if you just want to go and look at some amazing rugs that's pretty much free AIR. 4/30/09 - 5/3/09.
Website is acor-rugs.org
Pretty pictures: American Conference on Oriental Rugs

[Brat]

I love Oriental rugs. In addition to being a work of art, an Oriental rug accomodates all kinds of decor and when it comes time for our kids to dispose of our 'stuff' it won't be thrown in the dumpster.

My daughter went to school with James Opie's son. Great family.

[ladelfina]

I love oriental rugs.. I only have a fake (Karastan) large one I inherited, and a nice (to me) small handwoven one. But calmloki, maybe you can answer this question for me: I also inherited a very old small oriental rug that came to me as basically scrap. While it seems beyond repair itself, I have heard that restorers might be eager for older, naturally-dyed, fibers to use in re-weaving damaged antique rugs of value. Is there any way to ascertain whether this might be worth something? It's hard to imagine fully trusting the proverbial "rug dealers".

If you know enough about this, I'll bother to take and post a picture or two of the item in question. It must be at least 100 years old.

[calmloki]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

I love oriental rugs.. I only have a fake (Karastan) large one I inherited, and a nice (to me) small handwoven one. But calmloki, maybe you can answer this question for me: I also inherited a very old small oriental rug that came to me as basically scrap. While it seems beyond repair itself, I have heard that restorers might be eager for older, naturally-dyed, fibers to use in re-weaving damaged antique rugs of value. Is there any way to ascertain whether this might be worth something? It's hard to imagine fully trusting the proverbial "rug dealers".

If you know enough about this, I'll bother to take and post a picture or two of the item in question. It must be at least 100 years old.

Oh fer the love of....! Absolutely post and /or send me pictures! I have kind of a thing about old raggedy rugs - what we call WOB - worn old beauties. We volunteered at 2 of the ACORs and one ICOC convention - great way to get up close and personal with museum grade rugs (at a bargain basement rate too, long as you don't value your time....)

Up in Seattle a dealer/collector showed me a fantastic bagface - the colors were right, the wool was right, the design was very right, the condition was astounding, but there was something about it... turned out it was a new rug woven from unraveled old rugs - a forgery done too well. Which begs the question: why was it worth a few hundred vs. a few thousand? Art is a funny thing. I actually prefer in a perverse sense our beat-up rugs with holes and worn spots to fully repaired rugs.

[ladelfina]

Whew! It's even dustier and mustier than I remember it. You can see the worn patches and even holes in the central areas, and a good part of some borders is unraveled. It also has a couple of unidentifiable dark and light stains. It's about 4'x6' overall, with a very coarse weave and the fiber is also quite coarse and scratchy. It's apparently not a 'rich man's' rug.

All I know is that my mother got it from her grandmother, and that my great-grandfather had worked in Greece and Montenegro, so who knows whether it was purchased there or not.. (he may well have also traveled further east as he was a diplomat).

I made closer shots to show the corner design and the relative size of weave (measure is in cm).
I'd be thrilled if you could identify it in some way, calmloki. Thanks!

[calmloki]

Red wool warp and weft threads, symetric knot, coarse weave, looks like all natural dyes - with that i'd lean toward calling it a Caucasian Kazak, but Sally rightly says Turkish design. Going for a north eastern Anatolian. Guestimate it as circa 1910. Like the variety in the corner designs and the 2 crosses at S & W while there is an arrow at N & E (? hard to see) in the center medallion. Enjoy the eccentricity of spacing of the overall pattern elements as the weaver got close to the top of the rug - makes me wonder if it got a different weaver somewhere near the top of the central medallion - can you see a difference in the tightness or any change in the weft threads in that area on the back of the rug? What's going on in the upper right corner?

Here's one of our worn out old beauties: Mind has to fill in the holes and worn spots....

[ladelfina]

sorry, not sure: "upper right" of which photo?

I checked the center and there are three crosses with one arrow. So I imagine it is a prayer rug..

I'm amazed at your powers of identification. 1910 'could' be right (how can you be so precise!?!), but in the meantime I'm thinking it's SO battered and worn..I'm trying to figure where either my g.g.mother or g.mother might have used it in their own homes that it got so damaged like that, or worsened the damage, anyway. They were quite proper well-to-do Yankees with very tidy homes, not bohemian in the least, so it doesn't exactly "fit", them having let the rug get into that condition.

In the tall photo, the uppermost center section has a semi-circular rip about the size of a hand, that seems to have been imperfectly mended (but nothing modern-seeming nor wildly sophisticated in the repair). I read that these types of rugs were real workhorses and even used as luggage. So why would one acquire a damaged rug to begin with? Perhaps it was a gift, from a servant, even, or some other kind of memento. We will never know!

Perhaps the mending is what gives it an asymmetrical look. I couldn't see real evidence of someone picking up where another had left off, but perhaps my eye is not that acute. It's also on a bumpy surface in the photos (sorry).

Well, thanks for the info! I'm not really sure if I want to keep it, due to not knowing how to clean or care for it properly, or how to keep it from unravelling totally. Would someone else really want it? What sort of value range would you put on it?

p.s. I liked your rug, but the photo link is now gone. Mine is just about the same size. How do you keep the holes from spreading?

[calmloki]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

sorry, not sure: "upper right" of which photo?

I checked the center and there are three crosses with one arrow. So I imagine it is a prayer rug..

I'm amazed at your powers of identification. 1910 'could' be right (how can you be so precise!?!), but in the meantime I'm thinking it's SO battered and worn..I'm trying to figure where either my g.g.mother or g.mother might have used it in their own homes that it got so damaged like that, or worsened the damage, anyway. They were quite proper well-to-do Yankees with very tidy homes, not bohemian in the least, so it doesn't exactly "fit", them having let the rug get into that condition.

In the tall photo, the uppermost center section has a semi-circular rip about the size of a hand, that seems to have been imperfectly mended (but nothing modern-seeming nor wildly sophisticated in the repair). I read that these types of rugs were real workhorses and even used as luggage. So why would one acquire a damaged rug to begin with? Perhaps it was a gift, from a servant, even, or some other kind of memento. We will never know!

Perhaps the mending is what gives it an asymmetrical look. I couldn't see real evidence of someone picking up where another had left off, but perhaps my eye is not that acute. It's also on a bumpy surface in the photos (sorry).

Well, thanks for the info! I'm not really sure if I want to keep it, due to not knowing how to clean or care for it properly, or how to keep it from unravelling totally. Would someone else really want it? What sort of value range would you put on it?

p.s. I liked your rug, but the photo link is now gone. Mine is just about the same size. How do you keep the holes from spreading?

Prayer rugs are usually those used by Muslims during their daily prayers - hence not prone to having crosses - though the crosses may be mere design elements. That said, both Muslims and Christians wove carpets, so this could well be the work of a Christian weaver. A Muslim prayer rug will be directional and, most importantly, have a niche which is aligned with the direction of Mecca while praying:
SKY Pottery
I'm told that a Muslim who has made the pilgrimage to Mecca, a Haji, often brings back a bit of the soil from that holy place and may put a pinch of the soil at the point he touches his forehead during prayers - i like to think that the box between the forefingers in the above rug is such a place.

My dating is a wild guesstimate based on the condition, dye colors, pile wear, width and number of borders, eccentricity of design, ratio of width to length - ok, it just looks like it's from 1910 to me! Betcha i'm within 20 years +- though. (40 years, yeah that's a big enough target!). Still puzzling on attribution - the red ground and the overall 4-blue lobed pattern with little x-es between reminds me of Turkoman rugs - are there fine faint lines forming a lattice between the little x-es?

Rugs used to be cleaned by beating - then vacuums hit the scene and a whole bunch of great rug ends and tassles got shredded - some by servants,some by owners.... That said, let's see how 100 year old wall-to-wall carpets fare.

Rugs are just heavy fabric - pick a matching thread color and whip stitch the ragged areas - go back in to more solid area to get good anchor points. On edges and ends if you are patient put your stiches between the tufts and they will hide really well. Cleaning - i think by the colors that your rug is colorfast, but dampen a white cloth and rub the rug with vigor - check for color transfer to the cloth. Beat as much dirt from the rug as you can and then immerse on cool-warm water and brush with a dilute wool cleaner - be nice to the raggedy areas. I use a clawfoot tub and a board across the tub as a backer while scrubbing. Rinse rinse rinse rinse. Might take several days with lots of soaking and some scrubbing. Dry it as fast as possible with it laying flat in the sun with a fan blowing across the rug - i like to do the final drying with the back of the rug up so the water and any residual dirt or soap is pulled away from the top of the pile. This is what i've done with dozens of rugs - i've also ruined a rug in the past - it bled like crazy - so beware. My cleaner of choice is Orvus, used for washing horses. If the rug is musty put it out in the bright sun for a day, top and bottom.

I'm no good at putting a value on your rug - haven't been buying for some years and i think the market went kerschitt - about as popular as wearing a turban here in the states.. Can't say what collector might want your rug, but consider: there are only so many 100 year old rugs out there. If you like it at all i'd say clean it and use it. It's a link to Granny and your past. I paid $50 for the beat up Baluch prayer rug above - my favorite rug, the one i would grab if the house was on fire. We've paid 100 times that for a few rugs that i would let burn while saving my favorite. I think Freud said that carpet is the soul of a room. Bet you would be surprised at the way your rug comes back and speaks to you if you show it a little attention.
COFFEE AND CARPETS: From Table To Wall To Floor: Oriental Rugs Keep Moving Around European Homes

[MGYog]

Originally Posted by calmloki

If any of you are into old rugs ACOR 9 is going to be in St. Louis next year. That's the American Conference on Oriental Rugs - Lots of good speakers, kinda spendy to participate, but if you just want to go and look at some amazing rugs that's pretty much free AIR. 4/30/09 - 5/3/09.
Website is acor-rugs.org
Pretty pictures: American Conference on Oriental Rugs

Thanks for the heads-up. I do like rugs and have a small collection. And I have some really old, and tattered beat-up ones, that I still use in my condo. The patterns are beautiful. Even with large rugs, I will wash them myself in large plastic tubs (used for mixing cement) using very, very dilute baby shampoo and water, and using my feet to stomp on them while in water, and changing the water at least twice, before I air dry them on my deck hanging on the railings, with the least sun possible (inverted sometimes). Remember, in Iran, they put carpets in a brook, and leave them there to wash for some time, stepping on them once in a while to shake out the grime and dirt.

[michelesalamone]

hi
I have some questions concerning partition moquettes which can help me and if where on which I am possible other forum correct for my questions. It concerns oriental wantapijt thinks I with image of woman and child has also a seal and a seal impression .hoe old is these partition moquette and which landlord has them. where I find still photograph of these partition moquette or on which site is information there more. I am possible here no image uploaden because that here only works by means of Url and I am not possible these uploaden
thankx


hoi
ik hebt enkele vragen over wandtapijten wie kan me helpen en of waar op welke andere forum kan ik terecht voor mijn vragen .
Het gaat over een oosters wantapijt denkt ik met afbeelding van vrouw en en kind heeft ook een zegel en een zegel afdruk .hoe oud is deze wandtapijt en welke waard heeft ze .
waar vind ik nog fotos van deze wandtapijt of op welke site is er meer info .
ik kan hier geen afbeelding uploaden omdat dat hier alleen via Url werkt en ik kan deze niet uploaden
thankx

[calmloki]

Originally Posted by michelesalamone

hi
I have some questions concerning partition moquettes which can help me and if where on which I am possible other forum correct for my questions. It concerns oriental wantapijt thinks I with image of woman and child has also a seal and a seal impression .hoe old is these partition moquette and which landlord has them. where I find still photograph of these partition moquette or on which site is information there more. I am possible here no image uploaden because that here only works by means of Url and I am not possible these uploaden
thankx


hoi
ik hebt enkele vragen over wandtapijten wie kan me helpen en of waar op welke andere forum kan ik terecht voor mijn vragen .
Het gaat over een oosters wantapijt denkt ik met afbeelding van vrouw en en kind heeft ook een zegel en een zegel afdruk .hoe oud is deze wandtapijt en welke waard heeft ze .
waar vind ik nog fotos van deze wandtapijt of op welke site is er meer info .
ik kan hier geen afbeelding uploaden omdat dat hier alleen via Url werkt en ik kan deze niet uploaden
thankx

I am of little help - I think you are writing about a multi-niche prayer rug, a "saf". I don't understand the inclusion of a mother and child, which could have Christian meaning. My best suggestion would be to ask at this forum: TurkoTek - A noncommercial site for collectors of oriental rugs and other ethnographic textiles They are very knowledgeable.
I have seen rugs with lead seals attached, but assumed they were just importers markers.

http://groups.msn.com/SKYPottery/rug...to&PhotoID=278

[michelesalamone]

Originally Posted by michelesalamone

hi
I have some questions concerning partition moquettes which can help me and if where on which I am possible other forum correct for my questions. It concerns oriental wantapijt thinks I with image of woman and child has also a seal and a seal impression .hoe old is these partition moquette and which landlord has them. where I find still photograph of these partition moquette or on which site is information there more. I am possible here no image uploaden because that here only works by means of Url and I am not possible these uploaden
thankx


hoi
ik hebt enkele vragen over wandtapijten wie kan me helpen en of waar op welke andere forum kan ik terecht voor mijn vragen .
Het gaat over een oosters wantapijt denkt ik met afbeelding van vrouw en en kind heeft ook een zegel en een zegel afdruk .hoe oud is deze wandtapijt en welke waard heeft ze .
waar vind ik nog fotos van deze wandtapijt of op welke site is er meer info .
ik kan hier geen afbeelding uploaden omdat dat hier alleen via Url werkt en ik kan deze niet uploaden
thankx

OKE here a link to my photo's
SKY Pottery

[Urchina]

calmloki,

I think michelesalamone's carpet is actually a wall-hung tapestry. The woman and child in the picture is the Madonna and Christ Child. I don't know much about the seal attached. The last bit says "Lahore" -- I did a quick web search for "Christian, pilgrimages, Lahore, Pakistan" and came up with the fact that the cathedral in Lahore (the capital of Punjab, in Pakistan) was designed by a Belgian architect.

So my pure conjecture is this:
The tapestry is a religious souvenir from the Cathedral in Lahore. It's possible that it's a replica of a religious tapestry hanging in the Cathedral (the Belgians were famous for tapestries, it wouldn't seem terribly out of place for a Belgian tapestry to have been commissioned for a cathedral designed by a Belgian).

That's my guess, as haphazard and uninformed as it may be.

Michelesalamone,

Het is mogelijk dat uw wandtapijt is een gedenkschrift van de kathedraal in Lahore, Pakistan. Daar hebben zij een kathedraal voorbedacht door een Belgische architect.

De vrouw en kind zijn christus en zijn moeder, de madonna.
Hoe groot is uw tapijt, en wat bestaan op de zegel (wij kunnen in de foto's niets zien, behalve dat de zegel blauw is)? Is de zegel gemaakt van metaal (b.v. lood) of plastic? Weet U hoe oud het is? (bv, was het van U familie, en heel oud, of pas gekocht?)

Waar hebt U de wandtipijt gekregen?

En, van waar komt U? Uit Nederland, of uit Belgie, of ergens anders?

[73ss454]

I've never seen an Oriental Rug store that wasn't going out of business. I guess not too many people like them. (heh)

[calmloki]

Originally Posted by 73ss454

I've never seen an Oriental Rug store that wasn't going out of business. I guess not too many people like them. (heh)

Yep, most people are like, "it's a used rug? Don't you have some new rugs"? And sure enough, there are new rugs being made. A few people appreciate old rugs. probably fewer than appreciate old used cars . And rug store dealers and used car dealers are right up there on a plane - but it doesn't mean the rugs, or the cars, are all without merit.

Urchina, you could well be correct - thank heavens you can decipher the original writing rather than the Babelfish translation. I was guessing at meaning. I agree it looks like a tapestry - suspect that the seal, which looks green in color and is pressed onto a red yarn, is plastic. Wouldn't be too surprised if it was "art silk", a nice advertising term for mercerized cotton. Can't really tell from the pics provided - not really the kind of textile that has attracted me. I like primitive stuff that's been through the wars and is all used up not pretty civilized stuff!

[michelesalamone]

Originally Posted by michelesalamone

OKE here a link to my photo's
SKY Pottery

Ik ben van Belgium (Europe) Ik hebt het meer dan 20 jaar in bezit ,hoe oud het is weet ik niet dat wil ik zelf wel weten en vanwaar ik het hebt weet ik ook niet meer maar via via hebt ik het toen gekocht of gekregen precies weet ik het niet meer het lag nu al heel lang op zolder .
De wandtapijt is 95 X 130 en de zegel is grijs en niet blauw de blauw kleur is omdat het in een te donkere plaats een foto was genomen .
Op de zegel staan aan een kant de tempel afgedrukt en op de andere kant staat de naam Lahore .

I am of Belgium (Europe) I have it more than 20 years in possession, how old it is I dont now that I myself want know, however, and from where I have it now I but indirectly I it then has also no longer bought or got exact now I it no longer it lay now already complete long on attic. Partition wall moquette is 95 X 130 and the seal is grey and not blue blue the colour is because it in a too dark place a photograph had been taken. On the seal printed on a side the temple stand and on the other side the name Lahore stands.
Here more photo's
SKY Pottery

[michelesalamone]

Originally Posted by michelesalamone