Our Daughter

[ziggy29]

It really all comes down to what I consider the hardest stricture in the Bible - judge not, lest ye be judged. Your wife should be able to understand that any possible consequences of your daughter's lifestyle is going to be between the daughter and God. She can love and accept her daughter's life, whether choices or genetic dispositions, knowing that that is what God asks her to do. All the rest of it is just human prejudices and control issues. I always say, the last thing I want from God is justice. I would far prefer mercy. Hopefully over time your wife can understand this too. It makes such a difference in how you deal with your fellow man on a day to day basis. But as I said, it's hard. I hope things get better with time.

Well said. And Jesus didn't command us to "love your neighbor as yourself unless they are gay."

 

[FUEGO]

I guess I don't follow RC doctrine closely enough to know whether it requires the mother of a gay child to shun that child? From a theological standpoint, could not the mother (Cato's DW) maintain her disdain for the daughter's lifestyle, yet accept her daughter, flaws and all, as a human being? I don't pay attention to the Jesus stuff much, but I seem to recall that he was pretty big on forgiveness and accepting and loving others. Would the priests at her church tell her to shun her daughter in this case? I would suggest that there is plenty of biblical arguments that would allow your DW to accept her daughter for who she is, but that may be more apt for protestants and not so much for RC's?

If you allow me to put on my Dr Phil pants for a minute, from a psychological perspective your DW is probably experiencing cognitive dissonance. She loves the RC church, its beliefs, traditions, and teachings, and the values they instill. She loves her daughter but loathes the lifestyle her daughter lives. The conflict is so strong that she denies or avoids dealing with this conflict between her beliefs and her feelings for her daughter.

 

[TromboneAl]

Religion does some good in the world, but on balance, considering wars and wedges driven between people (as in this case), I see it as a negative.

I saw this movie a few nights ago:

The Sum Of Us Trailer - YouTube

In it, the Dad (a widower) meets a woman, and they plan to get married until the woman finds out that his son (Russell Crowe) is gay. So, she breaks it off, only to find out later that she made a big mistake.

 

[FIREd]

My sister came out almost a decade ago. She entered a civil union with another woman soon after and they had a child in 2004.

My parents are non-practicing Roman Catholic, but they grew up in strict RC households and still abide by RC principles.

My parents and grandparents had a very hard time dealing with the situation. My dad blamed my sister for choosing to be gay. If my sister said she was born this way, then my mom would become really defensive (are you saying I gave you the gay gene?). This was a no-win situation. Either my sister was responsible to choosing to be gay, or my parents were responsible for making her gay. This blame game really did hurt their relationship.

But, over times, things have really improved for the better. I wouldn't say there is total acceptance, because there is still some occasional consternation among family members. But my sister is in a stable relationship, she leads a quiet family life, and her kid (my niece) is well adjusted and has become her grandparents' pride and joy.

I think you need to give your wife some time. When something tears into your core beliefs, it takes time to heal. In the meantime, you can lead by example and show her the way.

 

[Sue J]

Religion does some good in the world, but on balance, considering wars and wedges driven between people (as in this case), I see it as a negative.

I saw this movie a few nights ago:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_eGUINTNHA

In it, the Dad (a widower) meets a woman, and they plan to get married until the woman finds out that his son (Russell Crowe) is gay. So, she breaks it off, only to find out later that she made a big mistake.

That's a young Russell Crowe!

Cato,

I'm sorry you're going through this with DW.

Two of my cousins (sister and brother, ages 57 and 61) are gay and have been since they were teens and young adults. Their mom, my aunt, loved them unconditionally and found joy in seeing them live their lives happy and fulfilled. My uncle lived in a world of disgust and disappointment that they didn't live up to his expectations. He surrounded himself in denial and avoidance of the topic.

I can understand this being a very difficult struggle for your DW. She's the one that has to reconcile her religion with her reality. I hope she can come to terms with this and love your daughter (and her family) unconditionally.

 

[donheff]

The use of the word "chosen" in my post was not meant in the way it was interpreted. I "chose" my husband did I not? We all "choose" our spouses.
The daughter has chosen her life long partner. That's all that was meant. What other word would you have had me choose given the context of what was intended.? No one these days, especially me....would ever intimate the daughter had a choice as to sexual preference. Of all the sentences in my thread...that's the one you chose to take issue with- given the context of the entire post? Please allow me more credit than that.

I'm sorry if I misconstrued your intention. This is the quote I responded to:

Your daughter has chosen to move in a direction that is so very foreign to your wife. That is her right...but it does not come without repercussions to both of you perhaps in very different ways.

I saw your phrasing as applying to a "choice" of lifestyle. If you meant that her particular "choice of partner" (i.e. a female) had repercussions my reaction is the same. She is gay, any partner she chooses will be female. So the repercussions you refer to would arise if she has a life partner at all. I don't see any repercussions as running from the daughter's choice to have a life partner but from the mother's refusal to accept her daughter as she is.

In any event, I agree that the bulk of your post counsels coming to terms with the daughter, not rejecting her. I agree with you that the daughter may be able to help her mother come to grips with the situation but the central "problem" (i.e repercussions) derive from the mother's attitude, not the daughter's decision to have a life partner.

 

[haha]

My guess is that you're probably out of luck trying to change DW's attitude from the outside -- it will have to change from within her.
Just be the bridge between the two of them by showing that you care equally about them both. That's as much as you can do, IMHO.

I agree. This is very well put.

I would also like to say that there is much to recommend the way gays live. During the 80s and all the period before AZT and the rest started helping men with AIDS gay communties suffered enormous grief and loss. Death was everywhere. But these men, and their female friends pulled together and worked together and supported on another and nursed one another and buried one another such that I at least felt that it was likely better to be sick as a gay man than as a straight.

Ha

 

[Nords]

My question is simple - and I do not want to get into the pro's and con's of the LBGT lifestyle - how do I mend the rift between my daughter and my wife - I could strongarm it, but that would not be my first choice and I would like her to contine to hold on her faith but be more broadminded and less judgemental. O by the way, I'm also RC , but would be considered a lapsed church member.

It's not a simple question at all, and I'm not sure that it's yours to ask.

It's also not your daughter's problem to solve. She has tremendous courage and pride to explain her family plans to you guys, yet somehow your spouse has made it all about her instead of supporting your daughter. Thanks a lot, Mom.

As Ann Landers used to say, you'll both have to tell your spouse that you'll miss her at the wedding... can it be presided over by a member of your daughter's faith?

Your spouse has to decide if she wants to deprive herself of this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to support her daughter, and perhaps eventually to hold her grandchild. It's sad to see a church policy "forcing" a parent to have to contemplate this sort of decision.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

Cato, sorry to hear about your family problem and the stress it is causing between your daughter and DW. On a recent post regarding my grandson announcing he is gay, I tried to convey the fact that I'm not taking it very well but am learning to live with it. Please don't try to force the situation through with DW. She will have to take her own time in deciding when and how to face it directly with your daughter.

Unless your DW is a very strong Catholic and would put a lot of faith in what a priest would have to say, that method turns me off. I'm Catholic, but knowing what I know and how I feel about priests, I don't think they know anymore than the next guy about how to handle the situation. It's a flip of the coin as to what type priest you get to talk to. What if the priest is anti-gay, follows the teachings of the church and gives your DW something to ponder that would harm a reconsiliation. I'm not saying some consultation is not warranted, but I would be careful who you choose. Any close friends you can talk to? The two of you should make the decision about who to talk to with 60% of the vote going to DW because she is one having the most trouble accepting.

Best wishes for a successful resolution in the family.

 

[Purron]

I can totally identify with this thread . My son came out after college .It was extremely hard to accept . You basically go through the grieving process and finally come to acceptance . I am Catholic like you a lapsed Catholic but my family is very Catholic , My sister is a nun. ( Which by the way there is a lot of gays nuns and we already know about the priests ). The thing that helped me was seeing my friends losing their children to drugs . I really thought about would I rather deal with that and the answer was a solid no . I realized that I wanted my son in my life . For his thirtieth birthday I took him , his partner and my daughter to Disney World . We had a great time and it really healed a lot of things . . Your wife is wasting precious time trying to change something that is impossible to change .

Moe, lots of wisdom in your words. Time with loved ones is precious.

 

[Corporate ORphan]

Moe, lots of wisdom in your words. Time with loved ones is precious.

I totally agree with this. However, my mother doesn't. I have seen her once in the last 2 and half years and it was me reaching out to her. SHe has never liked my husband because he was not the "right" religion. I ended up eloping because of this. I think the only reason "we all got along" was because of my father. SHe would have disowned me if she had her way.

About 2-3 years after he died she started doing "weird" things and almost died a couple of times from not taking care of herself. Ironically, my husband is the one who saved her life and sat in the hospital room with her every day (so I could go to work and not worry).

About 2 and half years ago I went through a few "life altering" events, including losing my job and seeing the company I had worked for 30 years be bought out by foreign owners. THey let go of thousands of people in December 2008 and since then the blood is still being spilt. THis community is very bitter about it so she knows somewhat of the story since she reads the newspaper,

Anyway, sorry for the post being much longer than I wanted. I will try to get to the point. She left 8 horrible messages on our answering machine, wanting to buy off my husband of 32 years, etc. (told him he was "young enough to experience other women") so that I could sleep on her couch and take care of her. Turns our my mother is a narcissist and I never knew it because I was shielded from a lot being the youngest.

I am in a no win situation. SHe has NOT tried to contact me in the last 2.5 years, let alone apologize for her behavior. I am lucky I have two siblings in town that "take care" of her but I can't go to any family functions that she attends. She has hurt me very deeply by not even trying to make amends or contact me even though I tried to meet her halfway by visiting her.

Now (finally) to the point of all this, you can't make someone else "behave" the way you think they should. About all you can do is say "I plan to behave in this manner, you need to do what you think is right. Just don't stop me from doing what I think is right." At least that is what I have learned from my experience.

 

[DallasGuy]

If your wife has time a good book to read is "Prayers for Bobby: A Mothers Coming to Terms with the Suicide of Her Gay Son".

It's a true story about a very religious catholic women (Mary Griffith) who's son came out to her in the 80's and eventually committed suicide because of not being accepted by his family. I'm assuming that your daughter is happy and not considering suicide....so I'm not suggesting the book based on that. But part of the book deals with the woman reconciling her catholic religious views with eventually accepting that her son was gay and that it's ok. It might give your wife some perspective from someone who had similar religious views. I wouldn't expect it to change your wife's views completely but just to add some perspective to having a gay child as it relates to her religion. You can probably find this book at the library. It was also recently made into a TV movie.

Prayers for Bobby: A Mother's Coming to Terms with the Suicide of Her Gay Son - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sheehs1]

I'm sorry if I misconstrued your intention. This is the quote I responded to:

I saw your phrasing as applying to a "choice" of lifestyle. If you meant that her particular "choice of partner" (i.e. a female) had repercussions my reaction is the same. She is gay, any partner she chooses will be female. So the repercussions you refer to would arise if she has a life partner at all. I don't see any repercussions as running from the daughter's choice to have a life partner but from the mother's refusal to accept her daughter as she is.

In any event, I agree that the bulk of your post counsels coming to terms with the daughter, not rejecting her. I agree with you that the daughter may be able to help her mother come to grips with the situation but the central "problem" (i.e repercussions) derive from the mother's attitude, not the daughter's decision to have a life partner.

No problem donheff...I wasn't paying attention to my choice of words in that sentence and never meant it to come across to anyone as if the daughter had a choice. I think I was trying to focus more....on the fact that one can not force anyone and that a person has to come to terms with things on their own ..so to speak. When I made my recommendation for counseling...it was ...as a mechanism for the mom to be able to talk to someone and have her own feelings honored. In the process...she might gain a different perspective...etc. Because she has as much right to her feelings as everyone else in the situation. I "sensed" rather than read...that she might feel like odd man out so to speak....due to the wording "strong armed" that was used. I agree with the philosophy..."don't judge less you be judged".
Also...this..."if you have not walked in the person's shoes...you don't really have a clue".

 

[donheff]

When I made my recommendation for counseling...it was ...as a mechanism for the mom to be able to talk to someone and have her own feelings honored. In the process...she might gain a different perspective...etc. Because she has as much right to her feelings as everyone else in the situation. I "sensed" rather than read...that she might feel like odd man out so to speak....due to the wording "strong armed" that was used. I agree with the philosophy..."don't judge less you be judged".
Also...this..."if you have not walked in the person's shoes...you don't really have a clue".

+1. I get worked up on the topic and fail to have enough empathy with people like this girl's mother. Most of us were raised the same way and would have agreed with her as kids or even recently. Views on the topic have changed but not for everyone.

 

[Moemg]

i have to agree with the recommendations for counseling especially if you live in an area where the subject is taboo . Let's face it . There are a lot of areas that are not open to these discussions . When I lived in New Jersey no one would have thought anything about a gay child but in Florida they would look at you as strange to even mention it .

 

[Cruisinthru]

I have been reading thru this thread and I think any mother who can not except her child in these circumstances needs counseling. In my opinion no one chooses to be gay. I like the saying that life isn't about the cards you are dealt but how you play the game. Maybe there is a lesson in the situation that this mother is not seeing. She has an intellegent and successful daughter who is obviously playing the cards she was dealt. I for one would be happy that she is in an exclusive and loving relationship, happy, healthy, and (from a mother's viewpoint!) that I might have grandchildren to love. All I ever wanted was health and happiness for my children (and granchildren!). One of my grandchildren is adopted, but heck if I can remember which one. So I don't think I would really care just how they got here.

 

[haha]

Most of us were raised the same way and would have agreed with her as kids or even recently. Views on the topic have changed but not for everyone.

My Dad was a sohisticated man, my mother kind of country. In middle age they had some financial and health reverses, and bought a big house cut up into small flats, except the ground floor which was a large apartment. We moved into this large flat when I was 15, and my 3 sibs down to 4, in the mid 50s

My mother was always in a dither because her tenants were, she believed, behaving immorally.(Ie bringing dates home for some naked fun.)

Like many attactive older city neighborhoods, this one drew lots of gay men. My Dad solved his problem of a nutty wife possibly messing up his business by only making new rentals to gays and lesbians. My Mom was ecstatic, because no one was any longer bringing home housemates of the opposite sex. My brother and I thought it was hysterical, both because we liked the elegant solution, and because we wondered if my Mom ever wondered where all the guys with orange hair and stuff came from.

The only time I ever experienced gay negative culture was college. But the rest of my life as far as I knew there were always lots of gays around, and they were as accepted as anyone else. Gay men seemed like anyone else, but better dressers and more polite.

I knew a number of lesbians also, as my wife was in a social group that contained many lesbians, and she set me up as a handyman for some of their household jobs. It was quite comfortable, they always gave me coffee, paid me well and unlike some heterosexual neighbors were totally uninterested in flirting with me, which made everything easier as my wife never liked me to be around women that she thought were looking for some sport.

Ha

 

[sheehs1]

+1. I get worked up on the topic and fail to have enough empathy with people like this girl's mother. Most of us were raised the same way and would have agreed with her as kids or even recently. Views on the topic have changed but not for everyone.

I understand donheff....but let me throw this out for all of us to ponder (while I duck behind a chair ). Are we not judging the mom? Isn't that the complete opposite of what we are offering to the daughter? The right to her convictions? Doesn't the mom have this same right?

After my mom passed away, I was in church that first mothers day without my mom. I was extremely close to my mother. The female minister had presided over her funeral. Her message that sunday....was not about the "fluff of mother's day and about how wonderful mothers are...(even though we are ). The majority of her sermon was to recognize there are daughters out there that have terrible relationships with their mom, some don't have a mom and how Mothers' Day is not the same for everyone...etc...etc. It was a refreshing "other view" one doesn't get often in church. Of course we logically all know this...but how many times does a minister address something like this openly in church? As it turned out, she had a horrible relationship with her own mom.

 

[Cruisinthru]

Maybe we are judging the mother for passing judgment on her own daughter. Who gives anyone the right to judge.

 

[REWahoo]

Maybe we are judging the mother for passing judgment on her own daughter. Who gives anyone the right to judge.

Ha will be along shortly to point out passing judgement is what we do here...

 

[Cato]

I was convinced that acceptance would come with time, but was not aware that things had taken a turn for the worse until my daughter emailed me and asked me not to come - the parents of both were going to meet up at their place, spend some time together it was going to be the first time that we were going to meet one another, on neutral ground, so as to speak. There was some anger and bitterness in her email, and it came as a bolt out of the blue.

I am grateful for the many responses and the cumulative wisdom that came through strongly. I wish we had an enlighted wise priest locally but as a lapsed RC, I am vaguely familiar with them but do not know them that well and frankly I personally do not have the knowledge or the church credentials to be of any help to DW.

I did discuss with DW the change of plan and the reason for the change and we had a painful discussion ( for her and for me). I did ask her to rethink her decision - my reasoning along the lines that she is our daughter, we love her and we would like to be involved with her life. I think that I can now do more good by trying to support both and make sure that both are aware that I care and love for them equally and am determined not to support the one against the other.

"Strongarm" - poor choice of words - what I meant to say was that DW will avoid making a decision about something as painful as this until she is forced to do so (don't we all) - but generally if given space and time afterwards will come to a decision, and I intend to give her that time and space and support.

 

[FreeAtLast]

First of all I want to say that your daughter and wife are lucky to have such an understanding father and husband. Perhaps speaking with a Social Worker or Psychologist who does not have a religious bias might help.

At this point talking to a priest might just help the division go grow deeper. It is their job to follow the teachings of the church.

I was a RC as a child then converted to the Jewish faith when I got married.

 

[donheff]

I think that I can now do more good by trying to support both and make sure that both are aware that I care and love for them equally and am determined not to support the one against the other.

"Strongarm" - poor choice of words - what I meant to say was that DW will avoid making a decision about something as painful as this until she is forced to do so (don't we all) - but generally if given space and time afterwards will come to a decision, and I intend to give her that time and space and support.

Sorry about the turn for the worse. Your intent sounds like the best approach. Good luck.

 

[haha]

If I were the daughter I would be absolutely dissatisfied by your compromise. Daughter is trying to live the only satisfying life she can live. Wife is rejecting her over this, in favor or some totally abstact "principle". What's worse is that the principle she has adopted is from a church which openly and egregiously violates its own strictures, probably has for its entire history but certainly has during the entire postwar period.

In this situation, although one can see how wife arrived at this posture, your accepting it runs the risk of forever alienating your daughter and what's worse hurting her deeply by rejecting the core of her being, the woman she loves, and her atempt to live a self actualizing life.

On the other hand, if you can ignore your wife's stance, and completely and publically accept your daughter's, best case your wife feels marginalized and gets aboard, or perhaps realizes that your response truly reflects Christian charity and social and family reality. Worst case, at least you have treated your daughter right.

Ha

 

[MuirWannabe]

If I were the daughter I would be absolutely dissatisfied by your compromise. Daughter is trying to live the only satisfying life she can live. Wife is rejecting her over this, in favor or some totally abstact "principle". What's worse is that the principle she has adopted is from a church which openly and egregiously violates its own strictures, probably has for its entire history but certainly has during the entire postwar period.

It's just possible that the principle the wife is applying is one she personally holds based upon her own belief system formed by her own interpretation of scripture or whatever else informs her belief system. It may not be that she has just adopted some abstract principle from a corrupt church. To assume so discounts the wife and her feelings in this tough situation.

And BTW, churches are made up of people. People are corrupt. They should be held accountable for egregious behavior. Higher standards should be expected but will never be fully achieved. People are fallible and imperfect to be sure. But poor human behavior does not necesarily invalidate the belief systems of the people within those churches. In fact, it is the recognition of their own 'imperfectness' that cause many people to attend church and seek God.

Ha, I'm not looking to be disagreeable with you. I generally admire your posts and would most certainly find myself at the short end of any exchange of posts. But in this case I feel the Mom is getting the shorter end on the advice offered. Her feelings are relevant and demand respect IMO.

Again, hopefully time will provide a path to reconciliation for the whole family.