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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:52 PM   #21
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by saluki9
Are those on the left the people always telling us that the end doesn't justify the means? Weakening the position of an entire country to save your own hide seems like a weak position to me. To me it's a sign of the times. This wouldn't have happened 20,30 or 40 years ago.

How long did it take them to crack, 24 hours? They're no John McCain.
This is not a left of right wing issue. Its about surviving. You way have big ****en balls and would have spit into those Iranians faces. However these people did not and survived. If you want to place blame. Scream at their government for sticking them in a no win situation forcing them to surrender.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 04:12 PM   #22
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Re: Our shameless culture

When I first saw the British Hostages on TV I was appalled. However, I was looking at it from the U.S. code of conduct. Nords is right. It really depends on what the British Military Code of Conduct says. Without knowing this, to condemn or approve of their actions is to operate from a position of ignorance. Below is, I believe is the current U.S. Code of conduct.

The Code of Conduct
I am an American fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies.

I will never forget that I am an American fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 04:15 PM   #23
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Dude, I think you have some "issues" here that you should probably address with professional help. That's the only way I can imagine where you are coming from.

You really think the smart choice would be to hold out until they broke you? How does that help you, your family, or your country? So you have utmost respect for the Taliban types who keeep up their resistance through the 37th waterboarding?
My only question is, whatever happend to name, rank, and serial #?

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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 04:16 PM   #24
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by saluki9
My only question is, whatever happend to name, rank, and serial #?

Last seen heading off into the sunset (towards Gitmo) with the Geneva Convention and the Bill of Rights...
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 04:31 PM   #25
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Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Nords, you're a betting man. What do you think the chances were that they would have killed one of those prisoners? If this were afghanistan it would be a different story entirely (if you read a little history you will see that they are without a doubt the allstars when it comes to killing POWs) Iran has a political agenda and there isn't a chance in hell they would have hurt them.
I can't speak for the British Navy, but they don't need my help. I'll stick to what I know of the U.S. Navy.

I'd say the chances were pretty darn high that an obstreperous, resistant, angry, combative POW would be killed a lot more quickly than a cooperative, smiling, reasonable POW. There was no reason to kill a POW on purpose but there were plenty of opportunities to kill one by accident. In fact those Iranian "soldiers" would scare the hell out of me with their poor training, lousy weapons technique, and generally unprofessional behavior that gave them all those POWs in the first place. The time to kick their assets would have been before I was captured. After the capture I'd be a combination of Guy Smiley & Gumby until I met someone who I trusted to be able to safe their weapons without shooting off parts of my anatomy. Their senior chain of command would appreciate the additional leverage offered by a live POW instead of a dead enemy.

Second, an obstreperous, resistant, angry, combative POW is not only a liability to his own health & safety but also to that of all his shipmates. If he's not cooperating then they'll just shoot one of his shipmates somewhere (hopefully) non-lethal until he calms down a little. If he's not answering questions then there's no need to start shooting (see the previous paragraph) but if he's raising a ruckus then they'd feel justified. Better yet, they know these infidels go crazy when they mess with their women-- so maybe they'll start there. They've seen just as many Abu Ghraib photos as we have and they're probably just as creative.

Third, an ORAC POW is not helping to facilitate the escape attempt. We want the guards to be lulled into a sense of false security by our Oscar-winning impressions of being scared little bunny rabbits. There's plenty of time to be a predator later, especially if they're bunched closer together to snicker with each other instead of spread out for mutual defense. Or maybe we'd be better off ditching the predator bit altogether in favor of departing with surprise, speed, and distance.

Fourth, an ORAC POW is not helping their chain of command with whatever mission they were trying to accomplish. It's kinda hard to lay ordnance on targets when your POWs are handcuffed to their rooftops. Stay out of trouble, stay alive, and let the bosses work on getting them out. It's a lot easier to rescue prisoners who are ambulatory than those who've been beaten, shot, and so forth.

Fifth, an ORAC POW is not helping their country's diplomatic & national command authorities. If everyone behaves themselves then we can keep talking until meaningless diplomatic semantic apologies are exchanged and hostages are released. If a POW's behavior leads to public retaliation then the POW's govt may feel it has no choice but to make an example of not negotiating with terrorists. Kinda tough on the shipmates and their families, but that's what happens when the govt makes decisions based on the needs of the many instead of the needs of the few.

All those POWs had to do was exactly what they did. They sat tight, followed their code of conduct, and waited for the next step. No one faults them for any video or documents or statements that were obtained under duress. It's the same thing the U.S. Navy's EP-3 crew did on Hainan-do and what Scott O'Grady did after flunking his F-16's Bosnia missile-evasion practical exam. It's the same thing that the U.S. Navy teaches at its Survival, Evasion, Resistance, & Escape school and the same thing the Army teaches its Rangers & SF. For the rest of us who didn't get to attend that kind of training, it's precisely why articles III, IV, & V of the U.S. military's code of conduct (hey, thanks Rustic) are written the way they are... in the blood of Stockdale, McCain, Galanti, and the rest of the POWs. I don't think the words "pussies" or "self-respect" are in there either.

For those of you not familiar with Paul Galanti, he was the pilot in the POW movie who was averting his face and scratching his neck with his middle finger in a gesture that wasn't recognized by the NVA. When the Russians explained that little cultural oversight to their NVA counterparts, Galanti paid a high price for a defiant gesture that served no purpose. In his defense, he says that he was young & stupid.

I can't speak for the Taliban but my nephew the Army Ranger has a couple deployments' hands-on experience. I'll ply him with a frosty beverage or two next month and see what he can tell me.

See, if the Iranians really wanted their British POWs to spill their guts, all they had to do was to start pouring the Guinness...

When I was a student at Monterey, my physics prof (about 75 years old, maybe older) was mugged outside a San Francisco restaurant. He tended to have a problem with not being allowed to do what he wanted, and he had the police record to show for it. Sure enough he started to chew out his assailant, make a scene, and threaten the guy with the gun to the point where the mugger shot the professor in the face until he was dead. He was defending a wallet with some ID, charge cards, and a couple hundred bucks. No doubt that was a huge consolation to his widow and the rest of his family.

You're correct, Saluki, that the military is supposed to resist. But there's a time & place for it. That resistance has to have a purpose and it doesn't work if you or your shipmates are dead. Self-respect and testosterone poisoning have nothing to do with it.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 04:44 PM   #26
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by Nords
I can't speak for the British Navy, but they don't need my help. I'll stick to what I know of the U.S. Navy.


All those POWs had to do was exactly what they did. They sat tight, followed their code of conduct, and waited for the next step. No one faults them for any video or documents or statements that were obtained under duress.
Apparently you have not been paying attention to the news from Britain. Plenty of people of unhappy with the behavior of these sailors.

One of many articles http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1629563.ece
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 04:50 PM   #27
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Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
...the military is supposed to resist. But there's a time & place for it. That resistance has to have a purpose and it doesn't work if you or your shipmates are dead. Self-respect and testosterone poisoning have nothing to do with it.
When I was first in the Army as a boy, somehow I thought that a POW should spit in their eye and so forth. In the course of my last assignment, I learned what the POWs really went through and slowly it dawned that it wasn't as easy as that. The most that we can reasonably request of a POW is that they deny the enemy intelligence while it is still useful. They are in no position to carry on the war by themselves.

It is possible that the British public and press has forgotten what war is really like and is thinking with their gonads. Jingoism is dangerous. Engage brain before putting foot in mouth.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 05:01 PM   #28
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by saluki9
Apparently you have not been paying attention to the news from Britain. Plenty of people of unhappy with the behavior of these sailors.
Actually I have been reading the news (it's all over Reuters, too) and I think most of the uproar is about the MoD giving the POWs explicit permission to sell their stories to the tabloids.

I don't put much stock in behavior under duress & stress, nor should those who've never been in a similar situation.

I hope that the stalkerazzi money goes straight to charity.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 05:03 PM   #29
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by Nords


I hope that the stalkerazzi money goes straight to charity.
Just heard on the news that the govt has changed their mind and they are no longer able to sell their story.

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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 05:04 PM   #30
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by saluki9
Just heard on the news that the govt has changed their mind and they are no longer able to sell their story.
Looks like those intrepid leaders & civil servants of the MoD are getting a little SERE training of their own!
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 05:13 PM   #31
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Re: Our shameless culture

The tough guys on this thread should enlist. It's obvious they can take on all the insurgents by themselves with a little help from S&W.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 05:13 PM   #32
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Re: Our shameless culture

I have someone I talk with who served in infantry combat. He was laughing at the people who think the soldiers/marines who should have put up a better "fight" while being captive. Until you have been captured and put into the same position maybe you should keep your "****ing" mouth shut as he put it. I tend to agree. Brave talk is so much easier to do when you aren't the one staring down the barrel. This is the same young man who basically **** himself when being mortared in Iraq.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 05:51 PM   #33
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Re: Our shameless culture

I don't think press pieces like this one are very helpful--we should save our outrage for the Iranians who were 100% in the wrong.

The MoD is surely taking a hard look at how the captives behaved, as well as the training they received. Remember that the US did not have an official Code of Conduct until after some Americans were perceived to have behaved in a less than honorable manner under some incredibly brutal North Korean conditions. And now the Code of Conduct is something that gets a lot of attention in all US military training.

I don't know how the captives came to behave the wy they did, but there will be lessons learned. I have worked with many British officers and some enlisted personnel. I believe the sense of personal and national honor is very much alive with that bunch. Make a bawdy joke about the queen if you want to test this.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 06:23 PM   #34
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Re: Our shameless culture

I do not think they should be allowed to sell their stories - ok - at least not for YEARS after this mess is over. Nor should they be praised as heroes or condemned for treason.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 06:28 PM   #35
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Re: Our shameless culture

I go back to Nords saying they should have resisted beforehand - the poster who said that not having enough 'firepower' for where they were and what they were doing was right in my estimation and that situation helped start this incident down the road. As for when they were captured - yes, if someone had a gun at my head, I'd probably comply, while still keeping in mind the Code of Conduct - again, Nords posting of Stockdale's (phenomenal man, if you read about him and his later forays into philosophy and ethics) idea of 'price of the day' is a good one.

There's another book out that was written about the US Iranian hostages and how they fared - they were civilians, so not having the benefit of training in a Code of Conduct like philosophy might have made some of their experiences more difficult. I don't remember the title, but it's on my list of 'to read...'

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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 06:41 PM   #36
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Re: Our shameless culture

I'm late in arriving to this discussion, but it is interesting to observe the difference in tone in the posts by those who have military backgrounds and those who do not.

As the native American saying goes, "Before I judge a man, let me first walk a mile in his moccasins."

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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 07:12 PM   #37
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
I'm late in arriving to this discussion, but it is interesting to observe the difference in tone in the posts by those who have military backgrounds and those who do not.

As the native American saying goes, "Before I judge a man, let me first walk a mile in his moccasins."

I can point you to plenty of people in uniform (all of them having served in combat) who find their actions totally inexcusable and disgusting.

Depsite what some believe, there are one or two other people who have made a career in the military besides Nords. My best friend from highschool has made a career in the Marines (including 2 tours in Iraq) his comments when I asked him about this over the weekend.

1. Why get taken alive?

2. They should line the F***ing C***suckers up and shoot them as traitors

Thankfully our military isn't all made up of pacifists


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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 07:26 PM   #38
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by Mwsinron
I have someone I talk with who served in infantry combat. He was laughing at the people who think the soldiers/marines who should have put up a better "fight" while being captive. Until you have been captured and put into the same position maybe you should keep your "****ing" mouth shut as he put it. I tend to agree. Brave talk is so much easier to do when you aren't the one staring down the barrel. This is the same young man who basically **** himself when being mortared in Iraq.
Nobody here (at least that I have seen) suggested they put up a better fight AFTER they were taken prisoner. It would appear as though they didn't put up ANY resistance whatsoever to the demands the iranians put on them.
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 07:32 PM   #39
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by saluki9
I can point you to plenty of people in uniform (all of them having served in combat) who find their actions totally inexcusable and disgusting.
Depsite what some believe, there are one or two other people who have made a career in the military besides Nords. My best friend from highschool has made a career in the Marines (including 2 tours in Iraq) his comments when I asked him about this over the weekend.
1. Why get taken alive?
2. They should line the F***ing C***suckers up and shoot them as traitors
I think I went to college with that guy!

I bet he was a lot of fun during the mission briefings...
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Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 07:55 PM   #40
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Re: Our shameless culture

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Originally Posted by saluki9
... They're no John McCain.
The tone of the hyperbole is outside of the pail.

It is really tempting to take the bait.

Those young men found themselves in a bad situation due to some mistakes. They were taken into a country where life is cheap and torture is the main activity of the day.

When you deride these young men... you insult all of us who have served.

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