Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 08:10 PM   #41
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 899
Re: Our shameless culture

Well I was POW and I didn't break Of course I was 8 and it was in my backyard

MB
__________________

__________________
mb is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 08:13 PM   #42
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 718
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
I can point you to plenty of people in uniform (all of them having served in combat) who find their actions totally inexcusable and disgusting.

Depsite what some believe, there are one or two other people who have made a career in the military besides Nords. My best friend from highschool has made a career in the Marines (including 2 tours in Iraq) his comments when I asked him about this over the weekend.

1. Why get taken alive?

2. They should line the F***ing C***suckers up and shoot them as traitors

Thankfully our military isn't all made up of pacifists


Really? and you haven't served a lick but being mugged as a child. Wow you are a plethora of knowledge. Lucky for those Iranians you werent captured boy they would be in trouble.
__________________

__________________
Mwsinron is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 08:33 PM   #43
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by mb
Well I was POW and I didn't break Of course I was 8 and it was in my backyard

MB
That's because your friends didn't attach a car battery to your nuts. I hear that is usually the one that does it. Althoug if you read that CIA interogation manual that was leaked a couple years ago they claim the best is dry firing an empty gun next to their head.


__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 08:36 PM   #44
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
I think I went to college with that guy!

I bet he was a lot of fun during the mission briefings...
Knowing him for most of his life I was always afraid he would get his hands on automatic weapons. Thankfully the Marine Corps provides an outlet for people like him (and pay to go along with it) How about that!

Thankfully they brought him home and he wants to go back to the sandbox. Some people just have a spirit for fighting.
__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 08:54 PM   #45
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
lazygood4nothinbum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,895
Re: Our shameless culture

one can only hope for his comrades in arms that god-forbid ever given a choice between publicly humiliating himself or taking a chance with the lives of his brothers in arms that he will choose a little military hazing instead of being the c***sucking stud he thinks he is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Knowing him for most of his life I was always afraid he would get his hands on automatic weapons.
if it wasn't for the arrogance of your argument you might not be blinded to the fact that you already have your finger on the problem.
__________________
"off with their heads"~~dr. joseph-ignace guillotin

"life should begin with age and its privileges and accumulations, and end with youth and its capacity to splendidly enjoy such advantages."~~mark twain - letter to edward kimmitt 1901
lazygood4nothinbum is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 10:00 PM   #46
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Re: Our shameless culture

Two points that I think are important in this particular situation.

But first let me say that I do not think a service person should have to endure torture for meaningless ideals. The Geneva Conventions should be followed and aid and information should not be given to the enemy.

In this instance there are two issues:
First is that we need to see this situation from the Iranian point of view desires and that is similar to what Osama has said: The west is weak and will not make the sacrifices to win. The Iranians are making that point to their armed forces, leaders and people.
The article makes the point also:
"Others may increasingly despise us, but we ourselves seem mostly content with what we have become, even if a few remain uneasy about our behaviour. Those who preferred us as we used to be had better take note: the Lion has turned into a fat and fearful Rabbit, and it does not seem to mind."

This may apply to the USA (from the enemy's point of view). It may be also be applied to the USA depending upon what happens in Iraq. The results is that it may enbolden our enemies.

The other point is more difficlut for me to make as I do not have all the details but can only raise questions and infer from the article it is along the line of: Was their actions appropriate for the situation?
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-10-2007, 02:08 AM   #47
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bright eyed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,891
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9

Thankfully our military isn't all made up of pacifists
1) i hope your friend doesn't get promoted into serious decision making roles in the military, and if so, i'm even more concerned than i already was about all this!

2) i don't think anyone was being pacifist - Nords and others were just invoking thoughtfulness and strategy - not cowboy vigilantism - there were also international relations to consider - you don't just fire when you know it could start a(nother) gigantic war...

3) it seems your brain and your pocketbook are well connected - now lets work on that connection w/ your nads...

Albert Einstein said that you can't both prepare for and prevent war...ponder that for a while...

__________________
If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...
bright eyed is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-10-2007, 02:25 AM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Ed_The_Gypsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: the City of Subdued Excitement
Posts: 5,293
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
My best friend from highschool has made a career in the Marines (including 2 tours in Iraq) his comments when I asked him about this over the weekend.
1. Why get taken alive?
2. They should line the F***ing C***suckers up and shoot them as traitors

Thankfully our military isn't all made up of pacifists
I don't think the issue is pacifism in the military. We need men like your buddy. ('We' meaning western civilization.) We need tigers. And we have them. No matter what is said in the hostile foreign press, most of our adversaries know damn well that we've got pit bulls and we will let slip those dogs of war when necessary. Unfortunately, they also know how to exploit our weaknesses.

A Canadian journalist wrote a few years ago that "A liberal society cannot be defended by herbivores." (An interesting public comment from a Canadian during a Liberal administration.)

This one is interesting:
Quote:
Albert Einstein said that you can't both prepare for and prevent war...ponder that for a while...
All wars can't be prevented, and you won't prevent any war by not being prepared. It is a devilish dilemma.

A historian I read in high school once said that civilizations fall when they stop making appropriate responses to challenges. That made a big impression on me.
__________________
my bumpersticker:
"I am not in a hurry.
I am retired.
And I don't care how big your truck is."
Ed_The_Gypsy is online now   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-10-2007, 03:35 AM   #49
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,072
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed
1) i hope your friend doesn't get promoted into serious decision making roles in the military, and if so, i'm even more concerned than i already was about all this!
I doubt that would happen. If he actually made that sort of vitriolic rant in public... He will naturally be limited in any upward mobilty as a leader. The only people who would say "line them up and shoot them as traitors" are:

- A 20 year old that has had too much to drink running his mouth. (Foolishness of youth.)
- Or a thoughtless fool.
- Or someone who has a f#%$@-up slant on life that is not the norm.

I ask you... Is this the type of leader you would follow?


I am a former U.S. Marine. I do not know the person you are talking about that made those comments... But I would suspect that if we all met him. We would understand why those word emanated from his mouth. One simple question... Is this someone whose opinion you would respect in any other matter in life?

__________________
chinaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-10-2007, 09:22 AM   #50
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed

Albert Einstein said that you can't both prepare for and prevent war...ponder that for a while...
I've pondered--it is idiotic.

How about this: "Noted historian and ethicist James Bartlesby said ' I'm not a physicist, but I believe neutrons stick to protons through the use of velcro'."

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will do the plowing for those who do not.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-10-2007, 10:17 AM   #51
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Rustic23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lake Livingston, Tx
Posts: 3,624
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed
Albert Einstein said that you can't both prepare for and prevent war...ponder that for a while...
Einstein was a devout pacifist. He believed in the world would only be safe by the creation of a Supranational World body and that body would be the only military power in the world, and would also have nuclear weapons.

However, it appears he was also somewhat of a pragmatist. In 1934, when faced with the rise of Hitler, he said “Up to a few years ago the refusal to bear arms by courageous and self-sacrificing persons was such a measure [of pacifism]; it is no longer – especially in Europe – a means to be recommended.”

He also supported the build up of the U.S. nuclear weapons stockpile, but as a defensive weapon only. This would appear to contradict his statement, ‘you and not prepare and prevent war at the same time’. Einstein came to the conclusion that militarism could not be eliminated, but should be controlled by on supranational i.e. U.N. type organization.

Now, without a doubt, Einstein was a great scientist, at least in his early years, however, I would find it hard to believe he would endorse handing over his security to the current United Nation’s leadership. Someday, maybe, but mankind must make some dramatic changes before that happens, and in the mean time I still prefer the Boy Scout motto “Be Prepared”
__________________
If it is after 5:00 when I post I reserve the right to disavow anything I posted.
Rustic23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-10-2007, 08:18 PM   #52
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed
2) i don't think anyone was being pacifist - Nords and others were just invoking thoughtfulness and strategy
Anyone who knew me during my active-duty days would not use the word "pacifist".

To be fair, I can think of quite a few of my old bosses who would also have been surprised to see my name associated with "thoughtfulness" and "strategy"...
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-10-2007, 08:23 PM   #53
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,137
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
After the capture I'd be a combination of Guy Smiley & Gumby until I met someone who I trusted to be able to safe their weapons without shooting off parts of my anatomy.
Hey! I resemble that remark.

I agree with your position. I have kept with me the lessons I learned from Commander Galanti, Captain Denton and Admiral Stockdale in the late 70's - no man is superman, but everyone can do a little something to make the bad guys earn your cooperation. Although I am quite the sissy, I think I could probably bring myself to say "no" at least once per day. Ultimately, however, I'm sure I would cooperate.
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-11-2007, 02:25 AM   #54
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bright eyed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,891
Re: Our shameless culture

As for the Einstein quote - i think it is intriguing...and hard to wrap your head around.

But what I can say is that I recall in W. Bush's first campaign - he had 2 strong messages - 1) that we should take care of America first and stop all this high fallutin' abroad to help other countries (a la clinton) and help ourselves first and 2) that our military was unmotivated/had low morale - in part because of the lack of major conflict since his daddy was in office. let's find those video clips!

whether he has in fact improved morale or not is up for debate, but it is interesting as there were murmurs pre-bush of the need for such a large scale army when we hadn't had major conflict in many years and now there aren't enough troops to handle this conflict, let alone others (if they should arise)...

__________________
If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...
bright eyed is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-11-2007, 04:31 AM   #55
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,072
Re: Our shameless culture

I believe our volunteer army is in jeopardy. I suspect that many reservist will get out once they get the chance... especially now that they see what is happening. I think most reservest considered that they would likely be called up for WWIII rather than alot of peace keeping and regional conflict.

I know that when I was in the USMC, I would go where ever when ever. I considered the reserves when I discharged. But decided not to do so. I know at the time, my view of reserves was that I would probably only be called up for something like a conflict with the USSR or China.

Think about the impact on people. Joe seargent has a management job making $70k/year. Gets called up twice, makes very little and risks his life. And is put in a financial strain to boot.

I suspect this approach is done! I am wondering when the draft will begin (again).


__________________
chinaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-11-2007, 05:59 PM   #56
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaco
I believe our volunteer army is in jeopardy.
I suspect that many reservist will get out once they get the chance... especially now that they see what is happening. I think most reservest considered that they would likely be called up for WWIII rather than alot of peace keeping and regional conflict.
I think the military has been going to hell in a handbasket ever since Spartacus turned in his shield. Yeah, the Reserve retirement & IRR requests are flying thick & fast (my spouse can attest to that). However the recruiters are still making their goals and the Air Force, in particular, can't throw 'em out fast enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaco
I would go where ever when ever.
What disappoints me the most is that the new Common Access Cards have done away with that legendary slogan "Have green ID card, will travel."

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaco
I suspect this approach is done! I am wondering when the draft will begin (again).
Search for the "draft" keyword to review the other 258 threads on that subject. My short summary of that is "Not a chance."

The good news is that I heard from an old shipmate today who's ER'ing from active duty after a 20+ year career. He gets it!
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-15-2007, 06:32 AM   #57
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,072
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Search for the "draft" keyword to review the other 258 threads on that subject. My short summary of that is "Not a chance."
I agree as long as we are doing small limited engagements and police actions (we have enough people to handle it).

Something has changed a bit in our culture over the last 30 years... I think it began to happen in viet nam. Many people will not serve. It seems that those that do serve are largely economically disadvantaged. For example in WWII, I am sure some people avoided it... However by an large many (likely most) felt an obligation to serve. I do not believe that exists much anymore. There was a brief surge of patriotism after 911... but for the most part, most of the people who joined were economically disadvantaged and viewed it as killing two birds with one stone (patriot and need a job).

If we have a large need... China, Russia, Large regional (Entire Middle East)... We will not have the people. Contracting it out is not feasible on that large of a scale. The contractors are vets (that pool is dwindling).

Next... sorry for the rant, but I can't help myself.

My opinion is that Iraq was such a misstep that it will leave the same view of military service that viet nam did. Our leaders were so eager to do it, they overlooked facts, drew bad conclusions, and painted a picture that justified what they wanted to do. Plus, they did not weigh the long-term consequences.

Bottom Line: GW is stubborn. He had an axe to grind (so did cheney and rumsfeld). Iraq was a huge misstep. Saddam will just be replaced by another strong man (who will hate the US). If democracy seems to be in the mix at all, it will only be a thin veil that is intended to legitimize the dictator that is in place. The containment strategy (sanctions and leaky blockade) was the appropriate response. All we did was destablize the region further. The tribal mentality of the middle east is unlikely to yield in our lifetime. It will be another 100 years (if then) before the ME resembles anything like western europe in terms of laws, stability, and government.

Our money and resources would have been better spent on energy independence.
__________________
chinaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-15-2007, 07:02 AM   #58
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,119
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaco
I agree as long as we are doing small limited engagements and police actions (we have enough people to handle it).

Something has changed a bit in our culture over the last 30 years... I think it began to happen in viet nam. Many people will not serve. It seems that those that do serve are largely economically disadvantaged. For example in WWII, I am sure some people avoided it... However by an large many (likely most) felt an obligation to serve. I do not believe that exists much anymore. There was a brief surge of patriotism after 911... but for the most part, most of the people who joined were economically disadvantaged and viewed it as killing two birds with one stone (patriot and need a job).

If we have a large need... China, Russia, Large regional (Entire Middle East)... We will not have the people. Contracting it out is not feasible on that large of a scale. The contractors are vets (that pool is dwindling).

Next... sorry for the rant, but I can't help myself.

My opinion is that Iraq was such a misstep that it will leave the same view of military service that viet nam did. Our leaders were so eager to do it, they overlooked facts, drew bad conclusions, and painted a picture that justified what they wanted to do. Plus, they did not weigh the long-term consequences.

Bottom Line: GW is stubborn. He had an axe to grind (so did cheney and rumsfeld). Iraq was a huge misstep. Saddam will just be replaced by another strong man (who will hate the US). If democracy seems to be in the mix at all, it will only be a thin veil that is intended to legitimize the dictator that is in place. The containment strategy (sanctions and leaky blockade) was the appropriate response. All we did was destablize the region further. The tribal mentality of the middle east is unlikely to yield in our lifetime. It will be another 100 years (if then) before the ME resembles anything like western europe in terms of laws, stability, and government.

Our money and resources would have been better spent on energy independence.
I said all you just posted months ago and Nords never spoke to me again.
__________________
newguy88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-15-2007, 07:40 AM   #59
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,072
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy888
I said all you just posted months ago and Nords never spoke to me again.
I do not know Nords. But I suspect that he can appreciate differences in opinions. I am not sure there is a big difference in the draft part of the response...

But my rant may ruffled a few feathers of several!

Everyone is welcome to their opinion. That is one of the reasons that Nords, myself, and other veterans served to preserve in our country. Our way of life and the freedom to have opinions.

On a lighter side. Here is a saying: Opinions are like @ssh*les, everybody has one. Some opinions elevate the person to the full status of one.

__________________
chinaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-15-2007, 07:51 AM   #60
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,119
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaco
I do not know Nords. But I suspect that he can appreciate differences in opinions. I am not sure there is a big difference in the draft part of the response...

But my rant may ruffled a few feathers of several!

Everyone is welcome to their opinion. That is one of the reasons that Nords, myself, and other veterans served to preserve in our country. Our way of life and the freedom to have opinions.

On a lighter side. Here is a saying: Opinions are like @ssh*les, everybody has one. Some opinions elevate the person to the full status of one.


I never served I did have a draft card and lottery number of 288 back in 1972.
__________________

__________________
newguy88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Germ Culture TromboneAl Health and Early Retirement 24 01-15-2007 04:46 PM
Culture of Complaint yakers Other topics 18 01-24-2006 08:44 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:00 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.