Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 02:14 PM   #1
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Our shameless culture

Interesting article - I think is says something about many of us.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/...shameless.html
__________________

__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 02:36 PM   #2
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Ed_The_Gypsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: the City of Subdued Excitement
Posts: 5,293
Re: Our shameless culture

I won't criticize anything said by a captive. Coersion can be unbelievably brutal.

A government needs to measure its response in the face of such provocation. You shouldn't react thoughtlessly.

You shouldn't ACT thoughtlessly, either. In my opinion, however, the British Navy should have been prepared for the worst when it sent that team to the Iranian boat. If you aren't ready to send the ship to the bottom, don't challenge it. This wasn't a simple inspection of papers by the port authoritiy of the Thames, for chrissake.
__________________

__________________
my bumpersticker:
"I am not in a hurry.
I am retired.
And I don't care how big your truck is."
Ed_The_Gypsy is online now   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 02:41 PM   #3
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 140
Re: Our shameless culture

Just wait until Iran finally launches its nuclear weapon at Israel. Then, you will be reading reports titled "How did this happen". Iran was just testing the waters when they took the British hostages. They wanted to gage world reaction and they got it.
__________________
janeeyre is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 02:42 PM   #4
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fireup2020's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,186
Re: Our shameless culture

Had a BRIEF conversation on this topic with my "civilian" friends while they were still held captive...who think that the captives did the right thing. I was appalled! Guess Her Majesty's military Code of Conduct training is not like ours.
__________________
Make no mistake, my friend, it takes more than money to make men rich. - A. P. Gouthey
Fireup2020 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 02:47 PM   #5
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
lazygood4nothinbum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,895
Re: Our shameless culture

saving face or save your neck. gee. that's a tough one.

sticks & stones.
__________________
"off with their heads"~~dr. joseph-ignace guillotin

"life should begin with age and its privileges and accumulations, and end with youth and its capacity to splendidly enjoy such advantages."~~mark twain - letter to edward kimmitt 1901
lazygood4nothinbum is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 02:56 PM   #6
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Our shameless culture

What a load of bollocks. This isn't a couple of schoolboys daring each other into a fight behind the bleachers. This is an encounter between two nuclear-armed nations, one of which is fully capable of shutting down the world economy. The UK did the right thing in the face of stupid provocation, and the Iranians eventually decided to correct their mistake. Running into an armed conflict over this minor squabble would have been a huge mistake.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 02:56 PM   #7
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Re: Our shameless culture

Their close proximity to the rest of western Europe has sissified even the brits. They betrayed their country to save their own hides (which isn't even true because there is no way in hell they would have hurt them)

It wasn't that long ago that a soldier would have been shot for that behavior. Churchill just rolled in his grave I'm sure.

Iran made their point loud and clear to the rest of the Muslim world.
__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 02:57 PM   #8
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 718
Re: Our shameless culture

People are really brave when they aren't in the same situation.
__________________
Mwsinron is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 02:59 PM   #9
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwsinron
People are really brave when they aren't in the same situation.
You know what? As a CHILD I had a gun pointed in my face during a mugging and I never stooped as low as those pussies. That was without any formal military training.
__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:04 PM   #10
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
You know what? As a CHILD I had a gun pointed in my face during a mugging and I never stooped as low as those pussies. That was without any formal military training.
I know a full-grown adult who was shot dead for the same behavior.

But he was really really brave, and the word "pussy" is not on his tombstone. So I guess he wins, although I'm not sure how his family sees it.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:05 PM   #11
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
You know what? As a CHILD I had a gun pointed in my face during a mugging and I never stooped as low as those pussies. That was without any formal military training.
And I'm sure your balls are all the bigger for it, tough guy.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:07 PM   #12
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,005
Re: Our shameless culture

This thread needs more Jack Bauer.
__________________
justin is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:09 PM   #13
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
And I'm sure your balls are all the bigger for it, tough guy.
Can't tell, but at least I will be able to sleep the rest of my life having some self respect. Something I hope none of those folks will be able to do.

__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:11 PM   #14
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Can't tell, but at least I will be able to sleep the rest of my life having some self respect. Something I hope none of those folks will be able to do.

Why? Why would you wish them ill after what they went through?

What was the outcome of compliance with their captors' demands? They stayed in one piece long enough to be released. Sounds like a reasonable choice to me.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:19 PM   #15
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Can't tell, but at least I will be able to sleep the rest of my life having some self respect. Something I hope none of those folks will be able to do.
On the contrary, I hope that they followed whatever code of conduct they were required to follow, and that they're capable of training their own troops to do the same some day. If a gun-toting guy orders me to play ping-pong while they roll video then that's what I'll do if it'll comply with the code of conduct while my bosses are trying to get me back home. And I'll expect all my shipmates to join in, too.

During their Hanoi Hilton sojourn, Stockdale used to promulgate the "price of the day". It was the amount of torture that the POWs were expected to submit to before they answered their interrogator's questions or signed the documents or made the videos or whatever. The idea was to preserve a measure of self-respect by paying a price while maximizing the number of live POWs. He was the senior POW and the other POWs had seen (or heard) what Stockdale was capable of doing, so the vast majority of them followed the policy.

Tell you what-- can I bundle up your comments and send them to one of my old leaders, Paul Galanti, for his commentary?
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:24 PM   #16
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Why? Why would you wish them ill after what they went through?

What was the outcome of compliance with their captors' demands? They stayed in one piece long enough to be released. Sounds like a reasonable choice to me.
Are those on the left the people always telling us that the end doesn't justify the means? Weakening the position of an entire country to save your own hide seems like a weak position to me. To me it's a sign of the times. This wouldn't have happened 20,30 or 40 years ago.

How long did it take them to crack, 24 hours? They're no John McCain.
__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:28 PM   #17
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
This wouldn't have happened 20,30 or 40 years ago.
Well, then let's go back a little further:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- George S. Patton



__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:32 PM   #18
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Are those on the left the people always telling us that the end doesn't justify the means? Weakening the position of an entire country to save your own hide seems like a weak position to me. To me it's a sign of the times. This wouldn't have happened 20,30 or 40 years ago.

How long did it take them to crack, 24 hours? They're no John McCain.
Dude, I think you have some "issues" here that you should probably address with professional help. That's the only way I can imagine where you are coming from.

You really think the smart choice would be to hold out until they broke you? How does that help you, your family, or your country? So you have utmost respect for the Taliban types who keeep up their resistance through the 37th waterboarding?
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:34 PM   #19
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Well, then let's go back a little further:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- George S. Patton
Nords, you're a betting man. What do you think the chances were that they would have killed one of those prisoners? If this were afghanistan it would be a different story entirely (if you read a little history you will see that they are without a doubt the allstars when it comes to killing POWs) Iran has a political agenda and there isn't a chance in hell they would have hurt them.

__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Our shameless culture
Old 04-09-2007, 03:50 PM   #20
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
lazygood4nothinbum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,895
Re: Our shameless culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
If a gun-toting guy orders me to play ping-pong while they roll video then that's what I'll do if it'll comply with the code of conduct while my bosses are trying to get me back home. And I'll expect all my shipmates to join in, too.
i never knew this and glad to hear it from a military guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Can't tell, but at least I will be able to sleep the rest of my life having some self respect. Something I hope none of those folks will be able to do.

how can you claim self respect if you do not respect life itself? it is one thing to be brave. it is another to look life in the face and say "you're not worth losing a little self respect over."

life will always be bigger than you & pride goeth before the bullet.
__________________

__________________
"off with their heads"~~dr. joseph-ignace guillotin

"life should begin with age and its privileges and accumulations, and end with youth and its capacity to splendidly enjoy such advantages."~~mark twain - letter to edward kimmitt 1901
lazygood4nothinbum is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Germ Culture TromboneAl Health and Early Retirement 24 01-15-2007 04:46 PM
Culture of Complaint yakers Other topics 18 01-24-2006 08:44 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:10 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.