Our shameless culture

[dex]

Interesting article - I think is says something about many of us.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/...shameless.html

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I won't criticize anything said by a captive. Coersion can be unbelievably brutal.

A government needs to measure its response in the face of such provocation. You shouldn't react thoughtlessly.

You shouldn't ACT thoughtlessly, either. In my opinion, however, the British Navy should have been prepared for the worst when it sent that team to the Iranian boat. If you aren't ready to send the ship to the bottom, don't challenge it. This wasn't a simple inspection of papers by the port authoritiy of the Thames, for chrissake.

[janeeyre]

Just wait until Iran finally launches its nuclear weapon at Israel. Then, you will be reading reports titled "How did this happen". Iran was just testing the waters when they took the British hostages. They wanted to gage world reaction and they got it.

[Fireup2020]

Had a BRIEF conversation on this topic with my "civilian" friends while they were still held captive...who think that the captives did the right thing. I was appalled! Guess Her Majesty's military Code of Conduct training is not like ours.

[lazygood4nothinbum]

saving face or save your neck. gee. that's a tough one.

sticks & stones.

[brewer12345]

What a load of bollocks. This isn't a couple of schoolboys daring each other into a fight behind the bleachers. This is an encounter between two nuclear-armed nations, one of which is fully capable of shutting down the world economy. The UK did the right thing in the face of stupid provocation, and the Iranians eventually decided to correct their mistake. Running into an armed conflict over this minor squabble would have been a huge mistake.

[saluki9]

Their close proximity to the rest of western Europe has sissified even the brits. They betrayed their country to save their own hides (which isn't even true because there is no way in hell they would have hurt them)

It wasn't that long ago that a soldier would have been shot for that behavior. Churchill just rolled in his grave I'm sure.

Iran made their point loud and clear to the rest of the Muslim world.

[Mwsinron]

People are really brave when they aren't in the same situation.

[saluki9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mwsinron People are really brave when they aren't in the same situation.

You know what? As a CHILD I had a gun pointed in my face during a mugging and I never stooped as low as those pussies. That was without any formal military training.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 You know what? As a CHILD I had a gun pointed in my face during a mugging and I never stooped as low as those pussies. That was without any formal military training.

I know a full-grown adult who was shot dead for the same behavior.

But he was really really brave, and the word "pussy" is not on his tombstone. So I guess he wins, although I'm not sure how his family sees it.

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 You know what? As a CHILD I had a gun pointed in my face during a mugging and I never stooped as low as those pussies. That was without any formal military training.

And I'm sure your balls are all the bigger for it, tough guy.

[justin]

This thread needs more Jack Bauer.

[saluki9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewer12345 And I'm sure your balls are all the bigger for it, tough guy.

Can't tell, but at least I will be able to sleep the rest of my life having some self respect. Something I hope none of those folks will be able to do.

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 Can't tell, but at least I will be able to sleep the rest of my life having some self respect. Something I hope none of those folks will be able to do.

Why? Why would you wish them ill after what they went through?

What was the outcome of compliance with their captors' demands? They stayed in one piece long enough to be released. Sounds like a reasonable choice to me.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 Can't tell, but at least I will be able to sleep the rest of my life having some self respect. Something I hope none of those folks will be able to do.

On the contrary, I hope that they followed whatever code of conduct they were required to follow, and that they're capable of training their own troops to do the same some day. If a gun-toting guy orders me to play ping-pong while they roll video then that's what I'll do if it'll comply with the code of conduct while my bosses are trying to get me back home. And I'll expect all my shipmates to join in, too.

During their Hanoi Hilton sojourn, Stockdale used to promulgate the "price of the day". It was the amount of torture that the POWs were expected to submit to before they answered their interrogator's questions or signed the documents or made the videos or whatever. The idea was to preserve a measure of self-respect by paying a price while maximizing the number of live POWs. He was the senior POW and the other POWs had seen (or heard) what Stockdale was capable of doing, so the vast majority of them followed the policy.

Tell you what-- can I bundle up your comments and send them to one of my old leaders, Paul Galanti, for his commentary?

[saluki9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewer12345 Why? Why would you wish them ill after what they went through? What was the outcome of compliance with their captors' demands? They stayed in one piece long enough to be released. Sounds like a reasonable choice to me.

Are those on the left the people always telling us that the end doesn't justify the means? Weakening the position of an entire country to save your own hide seems like a weak position to me. To me it's a sign of the times. This wouldn't have happened 20,30 or 40 years ago.

How long did it take them to crack, 24 hours? They're no John McCain.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 This wouldn't have happened 20,30 or 40 years ago.

Well, then let's go back a little further:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- George S. Patton

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 Are those on the left the people always telling us that the end doesn't justify the means? Weakening the position of an entire country to save your own hide seems like a weak position to me. To me it's a sign of the times. This wouldn't have happened 20,30 or 40 years ago. How long did it take them to crack, 24 hours? They're no John McCain.

Dude, I think you have some "issues" here that you should probably address with professional help. That's the only way I can imagine where you are coming from.

You really think the smart choice would be to hold out until they broke you? How does that help you, your family, or your country? So you have utmost respect for the Taliban types who keeep up their resistance through the 37th waterboarding?

[saluki9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Well, then let's go back a little further: "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -- George S. Patton

Nords, you're a betting man. What do you think the chances were that they would have killed one of those prisoners? If this were afghanistan it would be a different story entirely (if you read a little history you will see that they are without a doubt the allstars when it comes to killing POWs) Iran has a political agenda and there isn't a chance in hell they would have hurt them.

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords If a gun-toting guy orders me to play ping-pong while they roll video then that's what I'll do if it'll comply with the code of conduct while my bosses are trying to get me back home. And I'll expect all my shipmates to join in, too.

i never knew this and glad to hear it from a military guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 Can't tell, but at least I will be able to sleep the rest of my life having some self respect. Something I hope none of those folks will be able to do.

how can you claim self respect if you do not respect life itself? it is one thing to be brave. it is another to look life in the face and say "you're not worth losing a little self respect over."

life will always be bigger than you & pride goeth before the bullet.