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Old 03-27-2009, 03:06 PM   #21
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Was in a small town where a friend lived. Had DW plus mom and dad in the car. We had just come from church and were all dressed in sunday-go-to-meetin' clothes. Car was actually washed. DW and I in late '30s, mom and dad in early '70s.

I needed gas and recalled there was a station down a certain main drag. As I headed that way, there was a barrier about 1/3 of the way across the road with a sign "Road Closed Ahead". I assumed that meant "local traffic only" which is what I wanted to do. I carefully went around the barrier and sure enough you could travel to all the businesses and houses down that street without a problem. Unfortunately, the road did indeed close (at a RR grade) just before I could have gotten to the gas station. So I turned around. As I got back to the "pinch point", a cop pulled me over.

He didn't ask for license and reg. but started screaming at me. I'm serious. He was SCREAMING at me. "Didn't you see the blankity blank sign!?" He went on for at least a minute. Apparently he couldn't think of anything to charge me with so he let me go, still screaming at me as I pulled away.

This was Sunday at 11AM and there wasn't another car on the street (moving anyway). So I certainly hadn't put a soul in danger. The sign never said not to proceed (though I admit it didn't say "local traffic" either.)

So why this guy thought I'd committed the crime of the century, I have no idea. When folks only meet LEOs in this fashion, it's not surprising they don't always defend cops and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Relating this to the story at hand, technically Moats ran the red light. But BIL retired cop and cop friend have both related that they have ignored red light runners as long as the people stopped, cleared the intersection and then proceeded at a normal speed. Typically this happens at night when stopping is more dangerous than proceeding in some areas. SO, it is discretionary. Also related by BIL/friend - other than speed traps or aggressive driving, most traffic stops are made because of a hunch (don't call it profiling, heh, heh) that the LEO has. BIL and friend both related that they can stop any car within 3 blocks with a "legitimate" excuse. A wire hanging from the car, a turn light that doesn't appear to be quite bright enough, the list goes on.

Once the stop was made, pulling a gun on a (probably well dressed) family isn't the same as pulling a gun on a couple of gang-banger-wannabes who bolt from a car.

The officer is trained to be in control. I get it. But a little discretion is also part of the training - isn't it? Any LEOs care to comment?
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:31 PM   #22
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The worst part about this IMHO is that if the guy hadn't been an NFL player there wouldn't be any significant outcry, and the cop certainly wouldn't be on administrative leave. At least nothing serious came of this one, other than a sad story for the player. This situation at least can be a learning exercise for other cops with no one having to have been tased or shot. I don't think the cop should be fired, but he should have the notation on his jacket and have to go on to an excellent career in order to be promoted. A sad situation, with bad judgement.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:56 PM   #23
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The worst part about this IMHO is that if the guy hadn't been an NFL player there wouldn't be any significant outcry, and the cop certainly wouldn't be on administrative leave. At least nothing serious came of this one, other than a sad story for the player. This situation at least can be a learning exercise for other cops with no one having to have been tased or shot. I don't think the cop should be fired, but he should have the notation on his jacket and have to go on to an excellent career in order to be promoted. A sad situation, with bad judgement.
It seems to have been awhile for the story to have gotten out, and the guy never said he was an NFL player at the time... so I do not agree with you... this would have come out no matter who was on the receiving end... at least if someone had complained about it...
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:59 PM   #24
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Old 03-27-2009, 04:15 PM   #25
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Very very sad story indeed. I cannot imagine how this guy could keep his cool (as much as he did) while his mother-in-law was on her death bed and the officer not listening to a single word he was saying. (I probably would have lost it myself.) I got pretty upset when I saw that the officer was still trying to finish up the ticket when the nurses came out to convey to him that the patient was in fact dying and has already blue coded three times. It is really sad that his MIL expired before he had a chance to say goodbye. From the video throughout, you can see that the officer never seemed to comprehend the situation or show any compassion.

Like Dex said, it could have been another semi automatic weapon shooting in Oakland but if you watch the first minute of the video, I believe it is quite evident that the officer determined there was no physical danger (Two women came out of the car and they looked back at him but still rushed into the hospital and he let them) And there was no pressing the guy against the car to check for weapons or anything like that even after he pointed a gun at him (which makes no sense to me..)

I don't mean to analyze every little thing the officer did to pick on him. The only part I am really upset about is the fact that this officer seemed to show no compassion whatsover. I am not sure if that is something you can teach by sending him to a school....
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Old 03-27-2009, 05:34 PM   #26
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Sorry, I tried both links for the video and it doesn't for for me.
1st - click on it - nothing
2nd - don't see anything to click on
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Old 03-28-2009, 11:40 AM   #27
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Sorry, I tried both links for the video and it doesn't for for me.
1st - click on it - nothing
2nd - don't see anything to click on



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Old 03-28-2009, 11:47 AM   #28
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Oops. double post.
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Old 03-28-2009, 06:53 PM   #29
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Moats made a poor choice by running the red light, but that could have been worked out if he would just have stopped for Powell. He went beyond bad decision making when he refused to stop. We call that Evading Arrest in Texas and it's a get-handcuffed-and-go-to-jail offense. Moats aggravated it by being initially verbally confrontational with the officer. Moats' stopped being aggressive at about the same time that backup arrived in the form of a Plano PD officer. Coincidence? I think not.

Usually, when people don't want to stop for the police, there is something bad going on. Like hiding the dope, finding the gun, or luring the cop into an ambush, etc. All things which make the officer believe that a more serious, and dangerous, crime is taking place other than a traffic violation.

Powell had no idea why Moats didn't stop and he should have detained Moats, and everybody in the car, until he determined what was happening. But Powell didn't do that, he seemed to accept their story at face value, and nearly lost control over the situation when the wife just walked off.

And just as an aside for the armchair quarterbacks, saying "no" and walking off when a police officer says "stop" is a losing fight for you before it ever begins. It makes you sound all uber-brave on the internet, but in real life it's just the path to a lot of medical and legal bills.

But Powell came across as being weak - he's not as forceful and authoritative as he needed to be, and he was way more rude and condescending than he should have been. Most of the time when a cop is excessive in his actions it is because he is not completely confident in his ability to handle what's going on. I don't know Powell, but he comes across as being less than confident, and that's why Moats' wife felt she could walk off and why Moats felt he could be argumentative. You'll note that Moats chills out considerably after the PPD unit shows up on the scene.

One thing I quickly learned is never to tell people what I could do to them. Even though I was right, it always was interpreted by them as BS and just caused problems. My personal policy was to either go ahead and do it to them, or just keep my mouth shut. Powell was way too talkative about the things he could do to Moats. That's just my personal opinion, but I think it made him look like a badge heavy jerk.

Finally, in respect to his manner of speech, there's really no way to justify some of his comments. The "shut your mouth" comment is nothing but wrong. To talk like that to a traffic violator, while being taped by your own dashboard camera, is just asking for disciplinary action. There's better ways to get people to shut up, like "If you'd stop talking for a second I can figure out what's going on and get you on your way."

My questions about how he accomplished it aside, Powell evidently decided that Moats was not up to anything sinister. Which then left the question of what to do about the crimes that Moats had committed.

A lot of what police work is about is being the "Oh, yes you will" guy to someone who refuses to respect the rights, property and safety of fellow citizens. But, while order can be maintained through the enforcement of law, its application has to be tempered with common sense, dignity and the application of a little mercy every now and again. I think that, given what Moats was saying about his MIL, I would have taken him and gone in search of someone in the hospital who could confirm the story. If Moats was lying (and so many, many people do that sort of thing) I would have hammered him mercilessly - that's the order through enforcement part. If it was the truth, I would have given him a warning and let him go - that's where common sense and mercy come in.

Edit to add: The real ass in this whole mess is David Kunkle - the chief in Dallas. He trashed Powell's actions, but completely neglected to mention that Moats started the whole thing by refusing to stop. In fact, he made Moats out to be some kind of hero, which he was not.
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Old 03-28-2009, 07:22 PM   #30
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I didn't time the video, and I admit I have never been pulled over in 9 years of driving (so I don't know how quickly I would pull over - I'd probably panic and slam on my breaks in the middle of the road to make sure I didn't get shot!!!) (I am 25), but it didn't seem to be an unreasonable amount of time Moats took to stop.

Despite having never been pulled over or being arrested or ever being in any legal trouble in my life - I feel there are two instances, both when I was a teenager of being bullied by police officers (neither was late at night or anything shady) - so I am a little jaded.

It's sad, but true. I'll never trust the police...even though intellectually I know I should.
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Old 03-28-2009, 08:10 PM   #31
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Leonidas, I have heard from people in law enforcement to never stop if I have any reservations about being pulled over and especially at night, but instead to instead continue driving carefully to a safe well-lit public place where other people can see me. Are you saying I would be arrested for this in Texas? I ask because there was a case several years ago in DH's hometown where some punks put a couple of flashing lights on their car after dark, pulled a girl over on a country road, raped and murdered her, and left her body in a cornfield a couple of hours later.

I believe that Moats was already quite close--maybe a block away?--to the hospital when he rolled through the red light with his hazard lights flashing. I also don't think he was speeding, because he surely would have been ticketed for that too by Powell.

Also, is it standard to detain all the passengers in a car stopped in a hospital parking lot? I feel worse for the dying woman's father who waited in the parking lot with Moats and was not with his daughter at her death. Was that really necessary even if you feel there was cause for Moats, the driver, to be detained for more than 20 minutes?

The fact that chief David Kunkle reacted so strongly against officer Powell's actions to me says more about Powell than about Kunkle.
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Old 03-28-2009, 08:57 PM   #32
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Did it never occur to the officer that a car - with flashers on - approaching a hospital emergency entrance might have been delivering an emergency patient? He never asks or seems to consider that a possibility. Was he completely clueless that he was near a hospital? I have a hard time understanding what about his point of view could make his actions reasonable.
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Old 03-28-2009, 09:21 PM   #33
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Did it never occur to the officer that a car - with flashers on - approaching a hospital emergency entrance might have been delivering an emergency patient? He never asks or seems to consider that a possibility. Was he completely clueless that he was near a hospital? I have a hard time understanding what about his point of view could make his actions reasonable.
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Old 03-28-2009, 09:53 PM   #34
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The thin blue line.
Don't think I'd go quite that far, harley. Opinions vary of course.

I appreciate Leonidas' viewpoint. I'm assuming he knows whereof he speaks - especially when it comes to the way LEOs are trained.

Where I would disagree with him is in his reaction to the chief. (Actually, I'm REALLY surprised the chief would throw his officer under the bus so publicly. It opens the gate for a law suit.) As Leonidas points out, there were many mistakes made by the officer. That is the person the chief is responsible for. I don't think "who started" it is at issue. LEOs are trained to maintain control with just enough force. Once the officer uses too much force for the situation (whether physical or verbal) he needs to be disciplined. Again, maybe the chief shouldn't do that in public but the officer did make more mistakes than Moates if you want to keep score. But that makes about as much sense as deciding who started it.

Well, 'nuff said - well probably not if past performance can predict future outcomes

Anyway, thanks for responding, Leonidas.
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:10 PM   #35
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I apologise for my previous remark. I am not a cop hater by any stretch. However, I am a bit of an activist for things like ending the drug prohibition, asset forfeiture abuse, and especially ending semi-military SWAT procedures during relatively routine warrant serving. In a small minority of these situations, the cops are either wrong, unlucky, untrained, or even crooked. But they seldom are held to account in the same way any civilian would be. I get very angry and frustrated.

That being said, some of my best friends are cops.

Mostly ex-cops at this point. But still, I respect them. The criminal justice system bends over backwards to protect the rights of real criminals, often to the neglect of the victims. I would like to see that change. And the LE organizations also bend over backwards to protect their fellows, or possibly their organization's reputation, again at the expense of innocent victims. I would like to see that end too. Transparency helps. Vehicle cameras are useful both in protecting the cops against lies by arrestees. They are also being used more to protect people against improper actions by the police. I'm all for that.

Leonidas, I aplogise to you for that snarky comment.
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:50 PM   #36
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Here's another one, a little before this one. In this case the PO appears to have acted more reasonably, but it still looks bad. I think if I was in this situation I'd just keep driving and take the consequences afterward.

Traffic stop cut life short, man says : Local News : Memphis Commercial Appeal
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:58 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
Moats made a poor choice by running the red light, but that could have been worked out if he would just have stopped for Powell. He went beyond bad decision making when he refused to stop. We call that Evading Arrest in Texas and it's a get-handcuffed-and-go-to-jail offense. Moats aggravated it by being initially verbally confrontational with the officer. Moats' stopped being aggressive at about the same time that backup arrived in the form of a Plano PD officer. Coincidence? I think not.

Usually, when people don't want to stop for the police, there is something bad going on. Like hiding the dope, finding the gun, or luring the cop into an ambush, etc. All things which make the officer believe that a more serious, and dangerous, crime is taking place other than a traffic violation.

Powell had no idea why Moats didn't stop and he should have detained Moats, and everybody in the car, until he determined what was happening. But Powell didn't do that, he seemed to accept their story at face value, and nearly lost control over the situation when the wife just walked off.

And just as an aside for the armchair quarterbacks, saying "no" and walking off when a police officer says "stop" is a losing fight for you before it ever begins. It makes you sound all uber-brave on the internet, but in real life it's just the path to a lot of medical and legal bills.

But Powell came across as being weak - he's not as forceful and authoritative as he needed to be, and he was way more rude and condescending than he should have been. Most of the time when a cop is excessive in his actions it is because he is not completely confident in his ability to handle what's going on. I don't know Powell, but he comes across as being less than confident, and that's why Moats' wife felt she could walk off and why Moats felt he could be argumentative. You'll note that Moats chills out considerably after the PPD unit shows up on the scene.

One thing I quickly learned is never to tell people what I could do to them. Even though I was right, it always was interpreted by them as BS and just caused problems. My personal policy was to either go ahead and do it to them, or just keep my mouth shut. Powell was way too talkative about the things he could do to Moats. That's just my personal opinion, but I think it made him look like a badge heavy jerk.

Finally, in respect to his manner of speech, there's really no way to justify some of his comments. The "shut your mouth" comment is nothing but wrong. To talk like that to a traffic violator, while being taped by your own dashboard camera, is just asking for disciplinary action. There's better ways to get people to shut up, like "If you'd stop talking for a second I can figure out what's going on and get you on your way."

My questions about how he accomplished it aside, Powell evidently decided that Moats was not up to anything sinister. Which then left the question of what to do about the crimes that Moats had committed.

A lot of what police work is about is being the "Oh, yes you will" guy to someone who refuses to respect the rights, property and safety of fellow citizens. But, while order can be maintained through the enforcement of law, its application has to be tempered with common sense, dignity and the application of a little mercy every now and again. I think that, given what Moats was saying about his MIL, I would have taken him and gone in search of someone in the hospital who could confirm the story. If Moats was lying (and so many, many people do that sort of thing) I would have hammered him mercilessly - that's the order through enforcement part. If it was the truth, I would have given him a warning and let him go - that's where common sense and mercy come in.

Edit to add: The real ass in this whole mess is David Kunkle - the chief in Dallas. He trashed Powell's actions, but completely neglected to mention that Moats started the whole thing by refusing to stop. In fact, he made Moats out to be some kind of hero, which he was not.

What makes you think Powell would have understood anything? The idea that he has any sort of reasoning ability does not show up in the video. And, even when people from the hospital were explaining the situation to him, he still couldn't figure it out.

The true hero in the story is the police chief. His officer was just so completely out of line. I think the real problem was caused by the guy with the gun and badge escalating the situation. Sounds like you're upset because the chief didn't circle the wagons, close ranks or whatever you'd expect him to do to protect one of his own.

Yeah, the bad guy was trying to get his people to the hospital before their loved one died.

All that said, I often appreciate your thoughts and insights re: financial matters.
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Old 03-29-2009, 01:55 AM   #38
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I want to say, I think the traffic stop story bringing the 83 year old to the hospital is qualitatively different than the Moats story. While I think the officer was wrong to detain Moats and not recognize the possibility that people driving to a hospital might really have a good reason for trying to get there quickly - actually having a patient in the car trying to get to emergency medical treatment is a completely different situation. I am also surprised that the guy bringing the 83 year old to the hospital stopped.
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Old 03-29-2009, 02:12 AM   #39
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Leonides...

I assume you were a police officer based on your post...

From an interview Moats gave, he said he did not see the lights of the police car until he was IN the parking lot and decided that he was so close he would just go to the emergency exit (and looking at the video that was only a few seconds)... it was not like this was a high speed chase over a long time...

The officer was a jerk... as you said, it would have been very easy to take a minute or two to check out the story... but he did not...

Why did he point his gun at them? I can see having it drawn when people are getting out, but from what was said (and who knows if it was right) he held the gun on Moats for awhile...

I disagree with you on when he settled down... maybe your bias or mine, but I think he was just trying to get his ticket and leave... and had decided that he was getting nowhere with the officer so just take the abuse and get out of there... maybe another look would be in order...

And, even AFTER being told by a number of people (how many should it take... for me ONE) that his story was true, he still insisted on keeping him there... because he had a power trip...

Most of the times I have seen videos of police, they are very professional, but ones like this is just bad..

Another was the lady who lived in the country and did not stop BECAUSE SHE WAS TOLD NOT TO on a dark road... but drove to her house and the police officer dragged her out of her car BY FORCE and threatened her OLD husband who came out to see what was happening...

Sorry, but when some common sense is not being used by the police, it can lead to horrible conclusions...
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Old 03-29-2009, 09:54 AM   #40
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I think the key to Leonides's statement is 'people that don't stop for the police are usually bad peopel'

Not being a police officer I can only imagine the adrenaline that pumps when fear sets in and a solo police officer at night tries to stop a car and the car does not stop. When it does stop people star bailing out of the car and screaming.

I can not condemn or condone the police officers actions in this case, however, without the publicity, I would guess he would be admonished for his 'shut up' comment, and counseled on the situation overall, but not fired. My guess is in the back of the minds of his supervisors should be 'what if the next time there is a gun'.
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