over-zealous police officer

[MichaelB]

Might just be that both of these individuals are partially in the right and partially in the wrong. Just goes to show how a bad situation can get much worse very quickly. It also shows how the pressure and intensity of a situation can push people to the edge and make a reasonable outcome very unlikely.

My policy is not to argue with police, soldiers or other people with guns and badges.

 

[ratface]

I'm sorry he is resigning too if it is just based on public pressure. Hopefully he does not have much time invested toward his pension. Perhaps this line of work is not his cup of tea and would eventually cause him, his family, or some citizen great harm. He looks quite young. The learning curve on getting a handle in dealing with the multitude of possible scenarios is around five years.

 

[Texas Proud]

As some backup to Ratface's post... there was a cop that was killed in Houston similar Rats description... excpet the guy was able to get to the gun..

And I have been on the receiving end as a teen where we fit the descripton of a robbery suspect... they kept us there for over an hour, searched the whole car etc., called our names in... and at the end told us why, but did not appologize (guess since we were teens we did not deserve it)...

My last thought is that police also treat people differently the way they are 'look'... not just race, but how you dress etc.. My BIL went through a phase in his early 60s and grew his hair long... had a pony tail, had bushy sideburns... wearing old clothes and shoes, driving an old pickup... got pulled over and was treated quite badly... When he had his hair nice and was wearing nice clothes in his Lincoln, they were nice... now, this easily could have been the other way around if the cops were reversed, but who knows for sure...

 

[ziggy29]

I'm sorry he is resigning too if it is just based on public pressure.

It seems that the mob is particularly angry about a lot of things these days. Torches and pitchforks seem to be everywhere.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I'm sorry he is resigning too if it is just based on public pressure.

Is not one of the hallmarks of a free society that the police are
responsive to public pressure ?

 

[kumquat]

It seems that the mob is particularly angry about a lot of things these days. Torches and pitchforks seem to be everywhere.

Tar, feathers, rails? I have a great idea for an ER business.

 

[ratface]

In response to Rusty...

Public outcry is a good starting point for Police responsibility. It should lead to intelligent fact based discourse. Public sentiment is fueled by anger and outrage. This sentiment can either be pro police or anti police. Just this week we have seen two distinct stories chronicalling police behavior. We have the current discussion where the majority including myself believe the policeman acted inappropriately. We have the case of the policeman who entered the nursing home at great risk to himself and prevented further bloodshed to patrons and saved lives. I stated that I was sorry if our current policeman was forced out by public pressure. I stand by that statement. Public pressure should not dictate the outcome of factual evidence. That Officer was entitled to due process under his department guidelines. If the Chief of Police wanted to separate him from service there is an established framework in place to do so. He violated many rule violations that would have led to discharge in legal proceedings. I suspect that is why he resigned. He also stated that he hopes his blunder will benefit other policeman. I find that admirable. To illustrate my point, consider the following real scenario:

You are a policeman. One night you come upon a vehicle in the roadway obstucting traffic. You walk up to the drivers side and observe the driver passed out. You observe three other passengers in the vehicle who are drinking alcohol. You inquire about the driver and a backseat passenger grabs your coat. You pull away and he pulls you toward him. You realize that you are being pulled into the vehicle. You struggle to get away. The person pulling you slams the car door shut. Unfortunetly your hand is caught between the door and car frame. Your wedding ring is stopping your hand from releasing. In the comotion the driver wakes up and begins to drive away. You can not keep up with the car, yet you are attached by your hand. Your feet are reduced to stubs as the pavement wears out your shoes. Your legs begin to bounce off the roadway until the skin is worn off leaving only tissue embedded with asphalt. The car is now picking up speed in excess of 70mph, God has called you home! You somehow manage to jump up on the trunk and hang on to the rain molding with one hand. You are now peering into the back window and see a gun exchanging hands. God has called you home! You let go of your grip, pull your service revolver and fire into the back window. You kill three of the vehicle occupants including the driver which brings the vehicle to a stop. You spend years in rehab and eventually return to work!

Public outcry was- the policeman murdered three innocent victims.

They marched and protested against this officer calling him a murderer. The coroners office came close to indicting him for murder.

Ok. you tell me the the public was right on this one?

 

[kumquat]

Did that scenario happen? If so can you provide a news item?

 

[ratface]

It happened to Officer John Wilbur of the Pittsburg Police Department and the title of the story is " Officer Terror Ride". There is a 16 min video out there somewhere that tells the story. Toward the end you see him on trial for murder.

 

[harley]

I don't have a problem with any part of this story. If he shot those guys then there should have been an investigation. Coming close to indicting him for murder isn't the same as doing it. Anyone, cop or not, in this situation would have been investigated intensely, possibly charged, possibly tried. I know that police face intense situations all the time, causing their reactions to be sometimes extreme. But no matter what, they've chosen to become LEOs for their own reasons, so the situations and the results of them are part of their chosen life.

My issue is when things happen with police and the response is a whitewash, when a civilian in a similar situation would go to jail. It happens often enough to be a problem. I'm not talking about Rodney King, where we didn't see everything that happened. I'm talking about when the SWAt team breaks down the wrong door after obtaining a warrant based on crappy information from a criminal snitch, shoots and sometimes kills an innocent person, and the findings are that there was no wrongdoing. When the same situation happens but the citizen shoots a cop thinking his home is being invaded he goes to jail. Every time. That's what I have a problem with.

Edit: I've googled the John Wilbur story pretty hard. There's not much out there, since it happened in '97. I couldn't find the film although I found it mentioned as a training film. The stories I read are a bit different than what you wrote, not as dramatic. But everything I read portrays him as a hero, not a potential murderer who got off. I saw one brief blurb saying the dead guys families were shocked he wasn't charged, so it sounds like he wasn't on trial. There will always be a public outcry over any bizarre and outrageous situation, but it sounds like it worked out as it should have.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zy-hTI2gNggC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=officer+%22john+wilbur%22+ring&source=bl&ots=2LmW7oiTHA&sig=xq9wL2rT4P58YTjdujRH3bTB2jA&hl=en&ei=LtLUSde0COGrtgevpsngDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

 

[ratface]

I was writing from recollection of the training video. He narrates it. I had one too many people in the car and his rehab was much shorter. In the video they show a lot of pictures of his injuries. He describes the peeling of his skin like peeling a banana. I totally agree that such cases should be decided in court and not on the evening news. I could not find the video either. It must only have been produced as a training aid. The video recreates the entire episode.

 

[Texas Proud]

I was writing from recollection of the training video. He narrates it. I had one too many people in the car and his rehab was much shorter. In the video they show a lot of pictures of his injuries. He describes the peeling of his skin like peeling a banana. I totally agree that such cases should be decided in court and not on the evening news. I could not find the video either. It must only have been produced as a training aid. The video recreates the entire episode.

Looking at the example you gave... and not knowing any more... I would not have a single problem with him shooting the driver as IMO it was self defense... however, we do not KNOW if the driver knew about the guy or not... hearing various accounts of drunk people they do not know what is happening around them at times... there was no mention of if the gun was pointed at the officer or not... again, we have the word of the officer that is what happened, not the dead people... and we do know that officers can either lie, or have a different perspective of what is happening...

SO, say you had been drinking with a few friends... all were sloppy drunk... and you were barely able to do anything... you are in the back seat and a police officer does what you say... and the driver takes off... you might not know what is happening or just can not beleive what is happening to say anything.. maybe you are passing out yourself... and then the bozo next to you hands you a gun... you don't know what it is as you are drunk.. but are looking at it trying to make a decision in your stupor... and then you are dead.. shot in the back of the head... you did not commit any crime that deserved that outcome, but dead you are...


I do not envy the role the police have.... I could not do it... and I am willing to give the police the benefit of the doubt in a number of situations... but when there is video from beginning to end of the incident...

 

[ziggy29]

I do not envy the role the police have.... I could not do it... and I am willing to give the police the benefit of the doubt in a number of situations... but when there is video from beginning to end of the incident...

Agreed. I think the benefit of any reasonable doubt should go to the officer, but yeah, there are situations where there is really not a reasonable doubt. And when that happens, I don't think they should hide behind the badge.

 

[Trek]

I understand a cop has a tough job and they get jaded and come to see the worst in everyone. It's the nature of the beast. But still, the police are supposed to protect and serve. I think that can mean to help or have compassion or at least seem human. This officer did not show any of those qualities. My opinion is that over time many officers begin to think of their job as one of "busting people" and forget the part about serving the people.

And I know there are some good ones out there and they are the ones with my respect.

In this episode, I understand the cop didn't know what he was dealing with from the get go. But a vehicle heading into a hospital before even being pursued by the officer should be clue number one.

The vehicle had it's hazard lights flashing the entire time, not exactly something someone trying to avoid attention does. The vehicle stopped at the red light and made sure it was clear before continuing on to the hospital. Another clue.

Parking in front of the ER might be some kind of signal that that is where they meant to go.

Two women distraught and heading right into the ER could mean something. The driver and other passenger then explaining the whole deal might make all the other things add up.

But ok, you still think this is a problem (even though you didn't try to detain people leaving the vehicle and the scene.) You're only steps from verifying the story by going into the hospital. It really is right there in front of you. But ok, they're all on drugs and probably drove here to rob the place and they all have a good story they thought up to tell you.

Even if I look past all that, I still can't forgive the cop when the first nurse (or whoever off-screen) comes out and explains the dire situation and the cop just ignores and continues on. Then to top it all off a few minutes later another nurse comes out and says the MIL is dying right now and the driver needs to get up there ASAP and then this police officer says "I'm almost done" and continues to waste time finishing up writing his ticket and then has another power trip by trying to give a lecture to the driver about what to do next time a cop put his light on him. It's disgusting and the public should be outraged about the officers behavior in this case.

That cop should have let him run right up there and if hell bent on giving him the ticket, go in and give it to him when he's done writing it up. There is no reason that guy should have missed his MIL passing, plain and simple.

Should this officer have been fired? Not so sure. He should have been taken off the streets for a time and retrained at the very least. He definitely needed additional counseling. Perhaps though he could have become a better officer and learned from his terrible mistakes that night and taught others not to do as he did. Is the outcry by the public understandable. Certainly. Was resigning the right thing to do? I think so. He would have had no respect from the local populace after that encounter.