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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 06:50 AM   #21
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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I suspect that within several years of the US pulling out, there will be large numbers of Sunni Iraqis fleeing to the US and Europe. Actually, there is a nice Iraqi restaurant near work opened by people who already have.
Probably Bathists and probably secular. Not likely to be Islamic terrorists although they may hold a political grudge.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 10:35 AM   #22
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by youbet
As pointed out, this is very much not true, not even close. The fact that "urban legends" like this are circulating among people who otherwise seem capable of knowing what's going on in the world troubles me. A week or two ago, in another thread, a poster stated that the current debacle in Iraq has now taken the lives of more American soldiers than Nam. How can people have such gross misunderstandings about something, Nam, that is so clear and close to me?

I had to lean back and mull the situation over. I mean, how is it possible that so many folks are uninformed of the facts about Nam? Then, damn it, I remembered how damn old I am and the fact that Nam was my war and that current young adults weren't even born during the Nam era. :P

Just as I was born shortly after WWII (leading edge of the boomers), my son and young adults his age were born after Nam. NOT their war. Whew, time flies by.

Rusty, I'm not taking a poke at you. Just getting my generational perspective straight here.......

A recent poll revealed something like 47% of Americans think Saddam funded and planned the 9/11 attacks. Most people grab onto an idea that fits their world view and sticking with it and ignoring troublesome facts that get in the way. Politicians on both sides of the aisle have a vested interest to not go out of their way to disabuse people of their notions. Whether it be Cheney implying Saddam was involved, or Gore showing coastlines being flooded by global warming that wouldn't happen for hundreds of years in the worst case scenario, and implying it might happen in 50. "Truthyness" rules. :
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 12:03 PM   #23
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

"The Iraquis need to stand up." Yeah, we came in, blew the **** out of their infrastructure, hunted down the only guy keeping the powder keg of tribal warfare under control, insured that women will go back to being burka covered cattle instead of doctors and teachers. What the hell is wrong with these Iraquis? How can we possibly give them anymore?

Our job is done. Mission accomplished. Who's next? Bring 'em on! Support the troops by keeping them their until they die? God bless America and George "the decider" Bush.

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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 12:13 PM   #24
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by Elderdude
"The Iraquis need to stand up." Yeah, we came in, blew the **** out of their infrastructure, hunted down the only guy keeping the powder keg of tribal warfare under control, insured that women will go back to being burka covered cattle instead of doctors and teachers. What the hell is wrong with these Iraquis? How can we possibly give them anymore?
Really...you would think the Iraqis would be more appreciative after all we have done for them.....
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 12:19 PM   #25
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by Elderdude
"The Iraquis need to stand up." Yeah, we came in, blew the **** out of their infrastructure, hunted down the only guy keeping the powder keg of tribal warfare under control, insured that women will go back to being burka covered cattle instead of doctors and teachers. What the hell is wrong with these Iraquis? How can we possibly give them anymore?

Our job is done. Mission accomplished. Who's next? Bring 'em on! Support the troops by keeping them their until they die? God bless America and George "the decider" Bush.
A little bitter, are we??
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 12:27 PM   #26
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Finance Dude,
If you aren't angry about the our current president's actions, decisions, and appointments, you just aren't paying attention. But I seem to notice a lot of that in our youth. Probably gay, flag burning, abortionists at the root cause.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 12:45 PM   #27
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

By 'stand up' I intended to convey that this is their country, not ours, and they need to figure out how to create a safe place for their citizens. Personally I think the Bush administration was inept and bit off more that it was prepared to chew. I heard today a US commander say that he expected that the US military to be in Iraq indefinitely, like we have been in Germany or Japan - I don't think that is what most Americans want to happen. Within the next 5-10 years budget choices must be made. Where does the cost of maintaining troops in Iraq stand on your spending list?

One of the factors our leaders failed to consider is how communities function in the middle east. They are based on extended family (tribal in the larger sense) relationships to a great extent. It is difficult for them to put nation ahead of their group self interest, their borders were created by foreigners. After all "nationhood" is a relatively recent concept in Europe and it is evolving even now with the EU.

We and they must now deal with the fiasco.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 01:28 PM   #28
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
As pointed out, this is very much not true, not even close. The fact that "urban legends" like this are circulating among people who otherwise seem capable of knowing what's going on in the world troubles me. A week or two ago, in another thread, a poster stated that the current debacle in Iraq has now taken the lives of more American soldiers than Nam. How can people have such gross misunderstandings about something, Nam, that is so clear and close to me?
Good points. Here's an interesting article talking about Vietnam vs Iraq casualties:

http://www.slate.com/id/2111432/

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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 01:56 PM   #29
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
Good points. Here's an interesting article talking about Vietnam vs Iraq casualties:

http://www.slate.com/id/2111432/

An interesting read Rusty, thanks. I agree with the authors that for an individual combatant, Iraq may be as dangerous, or even more dangerous, than Nam. It's a little tougher to go along with their scaling of the absolute numbers to be equivalent. I think the absolute numbers are important.

edited to add: It's my hope that the absolute numbers of US troop casualties in Iraq never comes close to the absolute numbers that died in Nam.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 08:17 PM   #30
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by Brat
I heard today a US commander say that he expected that the US military to be in Iraq indefinitely, like we have been in Germany or Japan - I don't think that is what most Americans want to happen. Within the next 5-10 years budget choices must be made. Where does the cost of maintaining troops in Iraq stand on your spending list?
Kind of odd statement given that in Germany and Japan, the locals were not trying to blow up US occupation forces in their country. My uncle and Dad were in Japan in the late 40s and talked about how nice everyone was to them, even though we had just recently bombed the heck out of their country.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 08:17 PM   #31
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by Elderdude
Finance Dude,
If you aren't angry about the our current president's actions, decisions, and appointments, you just aren't paying attention. But I seem to notice a lot of that in our youth. Probably gay, flag burning, abortionists at the root cause.
I understand that they hug unborn baby whales too.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 08:22 PM   #32
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by Laurence
A recent poll revealed something like 47% of Americans think Saddam funded and planned the 9/11 attacks.
The Zogby poll calculated that 85% of the troops felt that they were attacking Iraq in retaliation for 9/11. However, 72% of them wanted to have all troops out by the end of 2006.

http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 08:43 PM   #33
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by Elderdude
Finance Dude,
If you aren't angry about the our current president's actions, decisions, and appointments, you just aren't paying attention. But I seem to notice a lot of that in our youth. Probably gay, flag burning, abortionists at the root cause.
I'm older than you think........... I guess I'm the only guy on here that holds Congress accountable. While I don't agree with MOST of Bush's decisions (I am a Conservative), Congress sits on their hands and does nothing. Funny how Clinton fired all 93 federal attorneys, and noone cared. Gonzales fires 8, and he's dragged before Congress.............nice double standard............. :P :P :P
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 09:08 PM   #34
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by bssc
The Zogby poll calculated that 85% of the troops felt that they were attacking Iraq in retaliation for 9/11. However, 72% of them wanted to have all troops out by the end of 2006.

http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075
That's an interesting poll, thanks for the link. Fairly big differences between Guard/reservists and AD personnel, and between Marines and Army personnel. I'd be interested in learning more about the personnel they talked to. Also, since the stuidy is a year old, I wonder how the opinions of military personnel now in Iraq compare to those who were serving there a year or two ago.

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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 10:12 PM   #35
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Funny how Clinton fired all 93 federal attorneys, and noone cared. Gonzales fires 8, and he's dragged before Congress.............nice double standard............. :P :P :P
Check your facts: it is customary for a president to fire ALL when he takes office. Both Republican and Democratic presidents have done that. It is unheard of for a sitting president to fire attorneys for political reasons. If this was AOK then why did Gonzales' assistant plead the 5th?

The absolutely WORST situation for the confidence of the citizens is the feeling that the actions of the Justice Department are the result of partisan politics... be the Republican or Democrat.

Yes Congress is accountable for NOT asking hard questions before authorizating the Iraq venture. Remember it was controled by the Republicans at that time.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 10:26 PM   #36
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by bssc
Kind of odd statement given that in Germany and Japan, the locals were not trying to blow up US occupation forces in their country. My uncle and Dad were in Japan in the late 40s and talked about how nice everyone was to them, even though we had just recently bombed the heck out of their country.
After WWII, it took several years before all of the unrest settled down in Germany. The locals were trying to blow us up, and their new government.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 10:48 PM   #37
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Check your facts: it is customary for a president to fire ALL when he takes office. Both Republican and Democratic presidents have done that. It is unheard of for a sitting president to fire attorneys for political reasons. If this was AOK then why did Gonzales' assistant plead the 5th?
I recommend you check YOUR facts: Clinton had Janet Reno fire all 93 US Attorneys. That had NEVER been done before--in the past, they were generaly replaced when their terms were up and the administartion decided that they wanted somebody else. Some have speculated that Clinton did this to stop the investigation of his shady dealings in Arkansas being conducted by the US Attorney in Arkansas. After the US Attorney conducting that investigation was fired, the investigation was never resumed. Curious. He was replaced by a Friend of Bill who shelved the investigation.

Nooo--politics has NEVER entered into this stuff in the past. : It is shocking, just shocking!
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-27-2007, 11:39 PM   #38
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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After WWII, it took several years before all of the unrest settled down in Germany. The locals were trying to blow us up, and their new government.
Could you point to some data on this? How many U.S. soldiers were killed from 1946 to 1950 in Germany? I read a lot on WWII and until Rumsfield made this assertion I'd never heard of a German insurgency.

I think comparing this war to any previous war isn't a great idea. It's not WWII and it's not Vietnam. It probably won't be fully understood for decades, by then we'll have a new war that people will try to compare to it. Analogies can help simplify an argument, but often give it flaws as well.

As far as U.S. A. G. "Gonzo", Scooter Libby, Clinton, etc. etc. it's never the act that people get in trouble for, it's lying about it afterwards. Had he not denied it in front of Congress in the first place, this wouldn't have legs. He made no friends on the left calling the Geneva Conventions "quaint" and doing a lot of Bush's dirty work. But everybody's got their foot soldiers - look at James Carville (sp?). Difference is his job was to....spin the truth.

EDIT: ah, here we go: "In fact, to say that there were no organized resistance movements in post-World War II Germany and Japan is an understatement. Former Ambassador James Dobbins, along with the RAND Corporation, authored a study entitled America’s Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, which determined that there was not a single post-war American combat casualty in Germany or Japan."

So it's not even a tenuous connection, it's just not true. There is no way to spin zero combat casualties into anything equivalent to thousands of dead and wounded after "mission accomplished".
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 12:37 AM   #39
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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determined that there was not a single post-war American combat casualty in Germany or Japan.
What, you don't think that Patton was murdered by SS Werewolves and made to look like an accident?
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 12:42 AM   #40
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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I recommend you check YOUR facts: Clinton had Janet Reno fire all 93 US Attorneys. That had NEVER been done before--in the past, they were generaly replaced when their terms were up and the administartion decided that they wanted somebody else.
Reagan did, indeed, fire all 93 US attorneys when he started his first term.

http://judiciary.senate.gov/testimon...16&wit_id=6062

"The Reagan administration, for example, acted in its own interests much the same as the Clinton administration had in its when it sought the prompt removal of all U.S. Attorneys from the previous administration, notwithstanding the fact that most of the persons whose nominations were to be submitted had not been selected and many interim persons would be required."
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