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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 01:10 AM   #41
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Not only did Reagan and Clinton do it, it seems W himself did it when his administration started. What is unprecedented is that W fired 8 attorneys halfway through their term whom he had nominated in the first place. Congress tries to investigate the reasons for the unusual firings and they are met with changing stories, obstruction, and taking the fifth so as not to incriminate oneself...

---An L.A. Times article, citing a Senate study noted: "Reagan replaced 89 of the 93 U.S. attorneys in his first two years in office. President Clinton had 89 new U.S. attorneys in his first two years, and President Bush had 88 new U.S. attorneys in his first two years," and citing a Department of Justice list, noted that "in 1981, Reagan's first year in office, 71 of 93 districts had new U.S. attorneys. In 1993, Clinton's first year, 80 of 93 districts had new U.S. attorneys."[102]---
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 01:13 AM   #42
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Again: If this was AOK then why did Gonzales' assistant plead the 5th?

Top executives of the Justice Department afraid to tell the truth? Imagine that!!
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 08:20 AM   #43
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by Brat
Again: If this was AOK then why did Gonzales' assistant plead the 5th?

Top executives of the Justice Department afraid to tell the truth? Imagine that!!
Right. The innocent have nothing to fear from a little harmless interrogation.

We all know what is going on--a urinating match between the legislative and executive branches. The constitution has a perfectly good answer--the courts can compel testimony if Congress can make the case. What would Congress say if Bush said he was unhappy with some aspect of the way legislation was being crafted, suspected wrongdoing, and demanded that Congressional staffers come to the White House to brief him on their activities? They'd tell him to go to hell, and they'd be right.

Ref the other observations on US attorney tenures: Saying that after two years XX% of US attorneys are new does not mean that they were fired, and is also entirely consistent with their replacement/voluntary departure at the end of their appointed terms.

The real crux of this issue is not that Bush fired 8 US attorneys--everyone agrees he was perfectly within his rights to dismiss these political appointees either singly or as a group. What needs to be examined is the individual allegations that a particular firing was intended to achieve a political end (e.g. to halt an ongiong case, etc). We have a problem only if laws are being selectively enforced to achieve political results or for the personal nenefit of the President/his associates. By commenting on the present situation, Hillary Clinton has set a new standard for chutzpah. Cut now to the WSJ editorial page of 14 March, which says it well and reads in part:

"The Hubbell Standard
Hillary Clinton knows all about sacking U.S. Attorneys.

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

Congressional Democrats are in full cry over the news this week that the Administration's decision to fire eight U.S. Attorneys originated from--gasp--the White House. Senator Hillary Clinton joined the fun yesterday, blaming President Bush for "the politicization of our prosecutorial system." Oh, my.

As it happens, Mrs. Clinton is just the Senator to walk point on this issue of dismissing U.S. attorneys because she has direct personal experience. In any Congressional probe of the matter, we'd suggest she call herself as the first witness--and bring along Webster Hubbell as her chief counsel.

As everyone once knew but has tried to forget, Mr. Hubbell was a former partner of Mrs. Clinton at the Rose Law Firm in Little Rock who later went to jail for mail fraud and tax evasion. He was also Bill and Hillary Clinton's choice as Associate Attorney General in the Justice Department when Janet Reno, his nominal superior, simultaneously fired all 93 U.S. Attorneys in March 1993. Ms. Reno--or Mr. Hubbell--gave them 10 days to move out of their offices.

At the time, President Clinton presented the move as something perfectly ordinary: "All those people are routinely replaced," he told reporters, "and I have not done anything differently." In fact, the dismissals were unprecedented: Previous Presidents, including Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter, had both retained holdovers from the previous Administration and only replaced them gradually as their tenures expired. This allowed continuity of leadership within the U.S. Attorney offices during the transition.

Equally extraordinary were the politics at play in the firings. At the time, Jay Stephens, then U.S. Attorney in the District of Columbia, was investigating then Ways and Means Chairman Dan Rostenkowski, and was "within 30 days" of making a decision on an indictment. Mr. Rostenkowski, who was shepherding the Clinton's economic program through Congress, eventually went to jail on mail fraud charges and was later pardoned by Mr. Clinton.

Also at the time, allegations concerning some of the Clintons' Whitewater dealings were coming to a head. By dismissing all 93 U.S. Attorneys at once, the Clintons conveniently cleared the decks to appoint "Friend of Bill" Paula Casey as the U.S. Attorney for Little Rock. Ms. Casey never did bring any big Whitewater indictments, and she rejected information from another FOB, David Hale, on the business practices of the Arkansas elite including Mr. Clinton. When it comes to "politicizing" Justice, in short, the Bush White House is full of amateurs compared to the Clintons. "

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110009784
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 10:21 AM   #44
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Could you point to some data on this? How many U.S. soldiers were killed from 1946 to 1950 in Germany? I read a lot on WWII and until Rumsfield made this assertion I'd never heard of a German insurgency.

I think comparing this war to any previous war isn't a great idea. It's not WWII and it's not Vietnam. It probably won't be fully understood for decades, by then we'll have a new war that people will try to compare to it. Analogies can help simplify an argument, but often give it flaws as well.

As far as U.S. A. G. "Gonzo", Scooter Libby, Clinton, etc. etc. it's never the act that people get in trouble for, it's lying about it afterwards. Had he not denied it in front of Congress in the first place, this wouldn't have legs. He made no friends on the left calling the Geneva Conventions "quaint" and doing a lot of Bush's dirty work. But everybody's got their foot soldiers - look at James Carville (sp?). Difference is his job was to....spin the truth.

EDIT: ah, here we go: "In fact, to say that there were no organized resistance movements in post-World War II Germany and Japan is an understatement. Former Ambassador James Dobbins, along with the RAND Corporation, authored a study entitled America’s Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, which determined that there was not a single post-war American combat casualty in Germany or Japan."

So it's not even a tenuous connection, it's just not true. There is no way to spin zero combat casualties into anything equivalent to thousands of dead and wounded after "mission accomplished".
I can't find it now. I was surprised at the amount and length of instability in Germany. It comes as no surprise that Japan was quiet. Look at their history and the behavior of the few Japanese soldiers captured. Your quote says nothing about any instability, only that no Americans were injured. The country was split into four parts. Were there any injuries to the English, French, Russians? Were there attacks that injured Germans or damaged/destroyed areas that had been rebuilt? The report I read said there was unrest and bombings did happen. Just because there were no American injuries does not mean the attacks did not happen.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 10:23 AM   #45
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
Check your facts: it is customary for a president to fire ALL when he takes office. Both Republican and Democratic presidents have done that. It is unheard of for a sitting president to fire attorneys for political reasons. If this was AOK then why did Gonzales' assistant plead the 5th?
I believe it is political, like 99% of what goes on in Washington.

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The absolutely WORST situation for the confidence of the citizens is the feeling that the actions of the Justice Department are the result of partisan politics... be the Republican or Democrat.
I submit that has been the case for a LONG time, but recently has be coming to light more often.

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Yes Congress is accountable for NOT asking hard questions before authorizating the Iraq venture. Remember it was controled by the Republicans at that time.
Well, count THIS REPUBLICAN as someone who thinks we ALWAYS should have had an exit strategy............ I fervently WISH that bills for wars be seperated from "pork projects", not lumped in........talk about "inherent conflist of interest"........... :P :P :P
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 10:46 AM   #46
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by samclem
He was also Bill and Hillary Clinton's choice as Associate Attorney General in the Justice Department when Janet Reno, his nominal superior, simultaneously fired all 93 U.S. Attorneys in March 1993. Ms. Reno--or Mr. Hubbell--gave them 10 days to move out of their offices.
Disinformation from an op-ed in the WSJ?!? I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you.

http://www.buzzflash.com/archives/07/US_attrny_rprt.pdf

In the table of US attorneys that have left before their 4 year term is over, I don't see a mass exodus in 1993. In fact, only TWO were dismissed before their term was over. They were both dismissed by Reagan.

Further, only 80 of 93 US attorneys resigned and were replaced in Clinton's first year. I'm not sure where that "10 days" comes from, except possibly from a freerepublic.com Clinton-forum-hatefest.


It is a pissing match between Congress and the White House. Bush can do what he wants with his attorneys. Unfortunately, Gonzales has now been shown to be a liar.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 10:47 AM   #47
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

How do you say "unwinable war" in Arabic?

Its about the oil first and foremost and everything else is secondary.

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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 11:05 AM   #48
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Its about the oil first and foremost and everything else is secondary.
I think it is more complex than that. Saddam attempted to assassinate Bush I, so there may have been a little 'get even' there, maybe also that left Bush open to the uncritical acceptance of the propositions of others.

I also think the administration was so full of themselves and their ability to change the world with the greatest military that they didn't think critically.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 11:13 AM   #49
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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I also think the administration was so full of themselves and their ability to change the world with the greatest military that they didn't think critically.
You really think they are capable of thinking critically? Pull the other one: its got bells on.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 01:15 PM   #50
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
I also think the administration was so full of themselves and their ability to change the world with the greatest military that they didn't think critically.
What. I clearly saw Bush say that the mission was accomplished. Are you saying that he wasn't correct?
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 01:23 PM   #51
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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I can't find it now. I was surprised at the amount and length of instability in Germany. It comes as no surprise that Japan was quiet. Look at their history and the behavior of the few Japanese soldiers captured. Your quote says nothing about any instability, only that no Americans were injured. The country was split into four parts. Were there any injuries to the English, French, Russians? Were there attacks that injured Germans or damaged/destroyed areas that had been rebuilt? The report I read said there was unrest and bombings did happen. Just because there were no American injuries does not mean the attacks did not happen.
I think the fact there were zero American deaths/injuries is as clear as it can be that comparing these two conflicts is invalid. We have dozens of American deaths every month if not weeks in Iraq, and it's 4 years after Saddam's regime fell. In fact, your quote above gives additional reasons why comparing these two wars is invalid - in this war we are responsible for the whole country, not one quarter of it. Take into account that Germans had western notions of combat (as do we) were a homogeneous populous (unlike Iraq with an ethnic and tribal split 3-4 ways fomenting civil war)...the list goes on and on.

The administration has been re-writing history to drum up support for this protracted war, and I think it undermines their case. I think pointing out the slaughter that would ensue once we left is a much stronger argument. The question will be if we are in fact preventing or prolonging. I've read reports that Shias and Sunnis are wanting to get a civil war over with and settle it once and for all. Just recently a news report documented a mixed ethnicity suburb of Baghdad where kids were playing soccer in an empty field between apartment buildings. Two cars drove up and armed men got out and opened fire. When they were done, 9 children lay dead. The neighborhood went mad and everyone grabbed their AK's and began shooting at their neighbors houses. The dead and wounded children lay out in the field for hours before it was safe to get them.

How do you combat people willing to sacrifice life like that? It reminds me of VC going to villages in the south and chopping arms off kids who received vaccinations from American doctors. We can debate issues from our perspective, but I think we have such different world views, we may be incapable of executing a solution that works because the only ones are unfathomable to us.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 01:37 PM   #52
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by eridanus
Disinformation from an op-ed in the WSJ?!? I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you.

http://www.buzzflash.com/archives/07/US_attrny_rprt.pdf

In the table of US attorneys that have left before their 4 year term is over, I don't see a mass exodus in 1993. In fact, only TWO were dismissed before their term was over. They were both dismissed by Reagan.

Further, only 80 of 93 US attorneys resigned and were replaced in Clinton's first year. I'm not sure where that "10 days" comes from, except possibly from a freerepublic.com Clinton-forum-hatefest.


It is a pissing match between Congress and the White House. Bush can do what he wants with his attorneys. Unfortunately, Gonzales has now been shown to be a liar.
"ONLY 80" That's quite a lot............
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 01:43 PM   #53
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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"ONLY 80" That's quite a lot............
Yep, but it's on par with Reagan. Clinton wasn't doing anything new.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 08:16 PM   #54
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Everyone in a government job that is considered political turns in their resignations after an election. When my dad was overseas and Reagan came to power, his boss, the US Ambassador, has his resignation accepted. The old ambassador was a career foreign service office. The new ambassador was a car dealer who supported Reagan early on and got the post as a reward. My dad admitted that he liked the political appointee more. The old guy was a brahmin who expected that people be nice to him on general principles. The new guy was a people person who knew how to motivate his opposite numbers from lots of years selling cars.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 10:40 PM   #55
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Laurence--My original point was not to compare the two wars. It was to point out an error in BCCS' statement that everything was peaceful and quite in Germany after WWII. I agree a comparison can not be made between them. To say that the Germans accepted the Allies occupation quietly is a large misstatement.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 11:27 PM   #56
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

I think that Japan was quieter than Germany. However, while some historians have said that there was a Werwolf movement until 1946 or even later, I don't think that they were responsible for many deaths after the VE Day. I am sure that they took credit for any accident or gas main blast.

I do think that the Bush administration is trying to make the comparison. Did you see this Slate article? http://slate.com/id/2087768
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-28-2007, 11:56 PM   #57
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Could you point to some data on this? How many U.S. soldiers were killed from 1946 to 1950 in Germany? I read a lot on WWII and until Rumsfield made this assertion I'd never heard of a German insurgency.
I have never heard of any significant armed resistance after the surrender. I think that is wrong.

But I have heard some antedotal stories about the early post-war years in Germany from a Danish acquaintance who was in Germany after the war. Basically the war had such a devastating affect on the country that civil order broke down in many areas and it took a while to become "civilized" again. They didn't challenge the occupation forces but it was a struggle to get enough food and just survive. He told me that they had groups of kids form just like packs of dogs outside the bounds of civilization because that gave them the best chance to survive.

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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-29-2007, 01:15 PM   #58
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

Back to the Justice Dept employee taking the fifth. Does anyone seriosly think that in the witch hunt atomsphere of todays Washington DC that anybody would say anything about anything. Look what happened to Libby. If you take the fifth they can't charge you with pergery.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-29-2007, 01:22 PM   #59
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

They can't charge you with pergery if you tell the truth either.
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad
Old 03-29-2007, 01:29 PM   #60
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Re: Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

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Originally Posted by USK Coastie
Back to the Justice Dept employee taking the fifth. Does anyone seriosly think that in the witch hunt atomsphere of todays Washington DC that anybody would say anything about anything. Look what happened to Libby. If you take the fifth they can't charge you with pergery.
Yep, there was (apparently) no underlying crime committed in either case, but you'd be vulnerable to a perjury charge for simply failing to remember correctly, or actually not remembering when the "interrogators" believe you should be able to.

The 5th is the prudent thing to do. Actually, I think the executive branch should simply refuse to have them answer anything about this until there's a subpoena.

It's charming that the strongest civil libertarians/backers of the ACLU are now sniping "if she hasn't done anything wrong, why is she taking the fifth?" Funny--a little.
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