PBS Frontline: The Middle Class and the New American Economy

[antmary]

I had to Google "polemy." I couldn't find "polemicist."
Definition: "Warfare, contention, opposition."
I think I'd rather go to another dance.

 

[ERD50]

I had to Google "polemy." I couldn't find "polemicist."
Definition: "Warfare, contention, opposition."
I think I'd rather go to another dance.

A double-click in my Chromium browser brings up this dialog:

polemicist
a writer who argues in opposition to others (especially in theology)

-ERD50

 

[MichaelB]

I am a closet polemicist. Form time to time, this breaks free.

Viva la huelga!

Ha

Don't be so modest! Viva la huelga!

 

[ERD50]

"I skate to where the puck is going to be, not to where it is"

Wayne Gretzky

That's a principle that many of us have followed throughout our careers. It means continuous learning, moving to where the jobs are or will be, and having an overarching vision (FIRE) that guides decision making. In general, except for making sure Keith had a college education, these families didn't do those things.

Our MegaCorp circulated a paper based on that quote. It was one of only a handful that stuck with me, about IBM making disk drives when they were a high profit margin and required special skills, and then moving away to the 'next big thing' as they became a commodity.

Kinda funny considering I'm basically sports agnostic, esp for hockey. The couple hours of the recent BlackHawks/Bruins playoff is very probably more than I've watched previously in my lifetime.

But that's a great quote.

-ERD50

 

[antmary]

Don't be so modest! Viva la huelga!

Somehow, I can't see ERD marching with Cesar Chavez! LOL

 

[Al in Ohio]

Watched most of it, thought it was predictable for NPR. The message seems to be lamenting lack of high paid manufacturing jobs for unskilled workers. I feel for the families but noticed all seemed well fed with TV's, etc. Not the definition of poverty in the other 98 percent of the world. Having 3 kids when you are 20? Not a good decision in the U.S.

You obviously have not witnessed poverty in the third world like I have. I do mission work and been invited into the homes of the poorest of the poor in Central America and Asia. They live in cinder block, wood and metal roof shacks with no plumbing. They still cook with wood fired ovens and have an outhouse if lucky. Yet one thing is far more common than you realize. They have a power line feeding a single or two hanging light bulbs and a TV set, often a flat screen LCD. It's their window to the world and their only luxury.

They also often have 4-6 kids. Why. Because the man gets the woman of the house pregnant with 1 or more kids and when times get tough he leaves her. Another man comes to her "rescue" a few years later and the cycle repeats. Saying no is not often an option. That's how most of the non industrialized world operates.

 

[Al in Ohio]

I found it shocking that the Neumann family mom took a job on an armored car crew where she carried a weapon and handled all that cash and got paid minimum wage. That is BS and proof of a screwed up system. I am an honest person, but I find it hard not to be in her shoes and one day find that some of my daily haul accidentally dropped out of an open door in my neighborhood ( annual bonus time)!

 

[haha]

It would take the law about 15 minutes to have you in custody.

Ha

 

[ERD50]

I found it shocking that the Neumann family mom took a job on an armored car crew where she carried a weapon and handled all that cash and got paid minimum wage. That is BS and proof of a screwed up system.

You are certainly welcome to start your own business and pay people the wages and benefits that you think are appropriate. Wouldn't that help more people than complaining about what others do?

I am an honest person, but I find it hard not to be in her shoes and one day find that some of my daily haul accidentally dropped out of an open door in my neighborhood ( annual bonus time)!

Funny, that sure doesn't sound like something an honest person would think about.

-ERD50

 

[Al in Ohio]

You are certainly welcome to start your own business and pay people the wages and benefits that you think are appropriate. Wouldn't that help more people than complaining about what others do?

-ERD50

Those wages certainly didn't help Mrs. Nuemann and she didn't't even get benefits. Honest people shouldn't have to think about alternatives for survival for their family because dishonest employers can't pay a living wage while they dine on caviar and ship champaign in their McMansion.

 

[H2ODude]

I finally watched it from the DVR today. I found it somewhat depressing; these people made errors but unlike most on this board, they didn't have the skills and understanding to plan their way out. Who of us would put college on a 24% credit card? And how does our system educate folks like this that it may not be a good idea? I love my kids and if faced with that as an only option I might. Did these people have the resources to relocate elsewhere when their homes were already tanked?

One takeaway for me. Married at 19, DW supported me through three degrees, two in engineering. She's still with me; and we waited for kids until I graduated (ding ding ding ding!). In fact she delivered #1 3 months into first job. If we hadn't known about birth control our life would have been a tad different. My parents stopped funding my education when we married, but we were prepared for that.

All that said, we also had some great luck (I know, you make your own good luck, but still) in some ridiculous opportunities we took advantage of, like a field assignment 1,000 miles away that moved us with her pregnant and a 1 year old. It kicked my career way up while those who didn't want to do it resented what it did for me.

So watching this show I couldn't help but feel sorry for them for the most part. Did I see options I might have taken to improve the situation? Yes, but I'm blessed with better education and "see backwards vision." We all can't have STEM degrees and live in paid off homes by the time we're 50. And it's hard for those people.

 

[check6]

Part of me though, was disappointed in the choices made. My wife and I put off having children when we were young. Why? Because we knew we couldn't afford them. I'm not sure when it became a right to have as many children as you want without regard to the costs of that decision. It was also pretty easy to predict the outcome of some financial moves (e.g. buying the building to start two new businesses, choosing an out-of-state school when an in-state would have been 1/2 the cost).

Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!

People give more thought into the car they want to buy than into having kids. I have seen this on my wife's side of the family; a sister that has kids and her kids have kids, both generations that cannot afford them. Sorry to be so hard nose, but I have zero sympathy. This is what is leading to the downfall of America.

 

[NW-Bound]

I was also taken aback that the job driving an armored truck paid only minimum wage, while requiring you to wear a gun, which would require some training, and imply some risks which the driver was not compensated for.

So, I searched the Web, and found on a job site an armored truck driver who said that he made $30K, certainly above the current minimum wage. He said that it was a dead-end job. Well, unlike in other fields, you do not eventually get promoted to a job with a higher responsibility, so that's normal. However, he added that "all in all it's a decently dependable job with benefits, paid vacation, 401k, etc. I'd say it's a good stepping stone, but not an extremely successful career job. Go work at UPS."

So, what gives? Why are businesses in the Neumanns' and Stanleys' area paying so much less? Their profitability must have been low compared to elsewhere. Why?

Or perhaps the stagnant economic condition there drags everything down, and the surplus of labor drives down the hourly rate. Fine, but why don't businesses see that as an advantage and set up shops there, instead of in other places where they had to pay a lot more for labor?

I would suggest to PBS to research into questions like the above.

 

[Arifriekinel]

Perhaps the stagnant economic condition there drags everything down, and the surplus of labor drives down the hourly rate. Fine, but why don't businesses see that as an advantage and set up shops there, instead of in other places where they had to pay a lot more for labor?

I would suggest to PBS to research into questions like the above.

My theory would be that, if no one is getting paid, no one can pay for your product or service either. I can buy 15 or 20 houses in Detroit for ~1k, but filling them with actual paying tenants is a whole other story.

 

[NW-Bound]

A spiral death trap, yes.

Is there any way out, other than for people to move all out of town, and to bulldoze the entire place, like they start to do in Detroit?

PS. If I were a manufacturer, would I not consider making my products there using lower labor costs and ship them to other places in the country. I would not pay them dirt cheap, but I could make my workers happy and grateful, while still paying them less than I would elsewhere. Why doesn't that happen?

 

[ERD50]

Those wages certainly didn't help Mrs. Nuemann and she didn't't even get benefits. Honest people shouldn't have to think about alternatives for survival for their family because dishonest employers can't pay a living wage while they dine on caviar and ship champaign in their McMansion.

I guess you & I will just differ on this, but I don't consider it 'dishonest' to make a transparent offer, and have someone accept or decline that offer.

If you feel this way, I hope that you practice it in your own life (you didn't respond to my suggestion to start your own business, so I don't know what you think of that). But I'd suggest you could practice in this way:

1) When you go to buy a product, consider if everyone in the supply chain is getting what you consider 'honest' compensation. If not, offer to pay more than the going rate for the product. That should help. Esp if you deal with small mom&pop places.

2) Don't buy things on sale. It might seem dishonest to you to pay less than what you could.

3) When you need work done, get three quotes and choose the highest one.

4) If you have an in-demand skill, don't ask/expect/accept a higher salary than those less skilled workers. That might be considered 'dishonest' by some.

These businesses are doing the same thing we consumers do. It's not dishonest.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

A spiral death trap, yes.

Is there any way out, other than for people to move all out of town, and to bulldoze the entire place, like they start to do in Detroit?

PS. If I were a manufacturer, would I not consider making my products there using lower labor costs and ship them to other places in the country. I would not pay them dirt cheap, but I could make my workers happy and grateful, while still paying them less than I would elsewhere. Why doesn't that happen?

It does, but often that place with lower labor costs where they make people happy and grateful is a third-world country.

Many of them would look at lower-class US citizens as McMansion, caviar, champagne consumers.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

I was thinking of the comparative advantage of labor cost this area may have over other places in the US, where manufacturing still exists, and the pay is significantly higher. California is an example.

There are obviously many more factors in play, and the labor cost may not be that dominant.

 

[modhatter]

It does, but often that place with lower labor costs where they make people happy and grateful is a third-world country.

Many of them would look at lower-class US citizens as McMansion, caviar, champagne consumers.

-ERD50

Everything is relative. Especially in the comparison game. The wealthiest on this board is down right poor compared to Bill Gates, or Warren Buffet.

 

[Throwdownmyaceinthehole]

Sorry, but I just watched this and it really hit home. That could have been me. Had kids young, no college, wrong husband. Broke, unemployed, using credit cards to get by. Had a garage sale to finance my divorce, finished college after 10 years and married the right man who believed in lbym. Without him, I'd be looking for that spot in a trailer park. Those folks in the show worked harder than I ever have. The poor always get hosed. A lot of life is Flip of a coin, luck, chance. My 'good' decisions could also have been my dumbest decisions, who knows where life leads us? Am I any better/smarter/harder working than those folks --I don't think so.

 

[Mulligan]

Sorry, but I just watched this and it really hit home. That could have been me. Had kids young, no college, wrong husband. Broke, unemployed, using credit cards to get by. Had a garage sale to finance my divorce, finished college after 10 years and married the right man who believed in lbym. Without him, I'd be looking for that spot in a trailer park. Those folks in the show worked harder than I ever have. The poor always get hosed. A lot of life is Flip of a coin, luck, chance. My 'good' decisions could also have been my dumbest decisions, who knows where life leads us? Am I any better/smarter/harder working than those folks --I don't think so.

If a person gets caught up in the day to day happenings of life you can definitely lose sight of the big picture and get caught in the permanent undertow. I was a first generation college graduate from my family. We lived in an area of many high paying blue collar jobs, while growing up. I saw the early 80s recession and it's impact on people while in high school. That was probably the main reason why I went to college. Of course the economy rebounded and there was a period of time afterwards where the renaissance of high paying jobs came back. I remembered for about the first 10 years out of college that maybe I was an idiot for continuing my education when I could have gotten a better paying job right out of high school. Well that thought certainly didn't carry on for very much longer. So for me looking back it was a very close call between being on the right side of the economic fence and retired before 50, instead of the wrong side and possibly struggling even today.

 

[SumDay]

Sorry, but I just watched this and it really hit home. That could have been me. Had kids young, no college, wrong husband. Broke, unemployed, using credit cards to get by. Had a garage sale to finance my divorce, finished college after 10 years and married the right man who believed in lbym. Without him, I'd be looking for that spot in a trailer park. Those folks in the show worked harder than I ever have. The poor always get hosed. A lot of life is Flip of a coin, luck, chance. My 'good' decisions could also have been my dumbest decisions, who knows where life leads us? Am I any better/smarter/harder working than those folks --I don't think so.

Wow, I could have I could have written most of that post myself! My salary is way above what most people with my educational level have attained. Truly, I think most of my success can be attributed to dumb luck. I'm embarrassed to say I've NEVER worked as hard as any of these people profiled do. I honestly don't have the fortitude. I can't help but feel sorry for them.

 

[pb4uski]

..... like a field assignment 1,000 miles away that moved us with her pregnant and a 1 year old. It kicked my career way up while those who didn't want to do it resented what it did for me....

While I haven't watched the show yet, I suspect that those chronicled would not have accepted a move as it would have been outside their comfort zone and the young child and pregnancy would have been an excuse to turn down the opportunity. And that is part of why they are where they are today.

I wonder if they are reading this thread.

 

[Al in Ohio]

PBS did not analyze why these families would not move to a new location in hopes of better work ( unless I missed it). I suspect it had something to do with their homes being underwater and not wanting to take a loss. They probably no longer could qualify for a new mortgage where they might move, but they could have rented instead. I think they put too much stock into homeownership being one sense of accomplishment.

 

[pb4uski]

But isn't homes being underwater in most parts of the country a fairly recent phenomenon (since the great recession)? IIRC prior to that homes in most parts of the country were above water.