Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-02-2014, 02:21 PM   #21
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: seattle
Posts: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewood90712 View Post
The only beef I have with widespread use of fracking is the huge amount of fresh water used , drawing down aquifers. Disposal of the fluid is no problem, as a lot of the holes drilled don't result in a productive well , so the contaminated water is put down those abandoned holes. I am satisfied with the safety of that.

We are using up fresh water that took hundreds of thousands of years to fill aquifers , to get the harder to get at oil. If oil is hard to live without , just try growing food without water.

I'm starting to rant. Will get off my soapbox now.
I take your point on the water. I have hoped that a method using gelled propane as a water substitute would gain traction, but cost is no doubt the big impediment. CO2 has sometimes been used, but must also be very limited as accounts of its use are rare.
__________________

__________________
bld999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 11-02-2014, 03:31 PM   #22
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
imoldernu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Peru
Posts: 4,616
Fracking doesn't stop with water...
My new nextdoor neighbor moved from his home near Utica IL... (Just down the road from us)... because of dynamiting, silica sand blowing through the neighborhood, and the 24/7 rumble of huge sand trucks.
The entire county is being affected by the expanded production. Positive side , jobs, negatives... loss of neighborhoods, increased road costs, tourism (Starved rock State Park), Illinois River barge traffic and potential ground stability problems.

In silica valley, the sand is moving - LaSalle News Tribune - LaSalle, IL
__________________

__________________
imoldernu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 03:35 PM   #23
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewood90712 View Post
The only beef I have with widespread use of fracking is the huge amount of fresh water used , drawing down aquifers. Disposal of the fluid is no problem, as a lot of the holes drilled don't result in a productive well , so the contaminated water is put down those abandoned holes. I am satisfied with the safety of that.

We are using up fresh water that took hundreds of thousands of years to fill aquifers , to get the harder to get at oil. If oil is hard to live without , just try growing food without water.

I'm starting to rant. Will get off my soapbox now.
I'd love to compare the amounts of water used to keep lawns green vs. what's used in drilling and completing wells. Also, as far as "abandoned holes" go, today's 3D seismic and downhole logging techniques (and tools), lead to very few dry holes. Most new wells that are not turning out productive, never see a horizontal frac job. And most frac water these days is recovered during well completion and sent to a licensed injection facility for disposal. It's not the Wild, Wild West anymore, especially when it cost upwards of $11 - $12 million to drill and complete a new well.

Yes, I'm on the bandwagon, so to say, as I have been in the industry for 33 years and have seen a lot.
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 03:44 PM   #24
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by imoldernu View Post
Fracking doesn't stop with water...
My new nextdoor neighbor moved from his home near Utica IL... (Just down the road from us)... because of dynamiting, silica sand blowing through the neighborhood, and the 24/7 rumble of huge sand trucks.
The entire county is being affected by the expanded production. Positive side , jobs, negatives... loss of neighborhoods, increased road costs, tourism (Starved rock State Park), Illinois River barge traffic and potential ground stability problems.

In silica valley, the sand is moving - LaSalle News Tribune - LaSalle, IL
I honestly don't believe the "entire country" is being affected by an army of sand trucks rumbling by and blowing silica all over the landscape and other negative points you mention.

I have to agree that the upper midwest, especially Ohio in the Utica Shale area, is experiencing increased oil and gas production activity, but it's certainly not that big of a problem on the population. The areas with the greatest focus on new drilling (oil, not so much gas at the moment) are North Dakota, south and west Texas, and Oklahoma.

Your link requires a subscription to read the article.
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 03:55 PM   #25
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,666
Minnesota has some issues as well with digging for 'frac sand'.
While very few are being directly affected, the numbers aren't inconsequential.

Peak conventional oil happened. Technology has improved allowing as to get at more of the stuff. However, much of this new oil costs more to get, or carries bigger risks, or both.

Our economy is far too reliant on oil. There is a reason price spikes are almost always followed by recessions.

Lessening our society's dependance on oil is the best thing you can do for your retirement and future of your kids (ok, other than teaching them well).
__________________
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
(Ancient Indian Proverb)"
Zathras is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 04:10 PM   #26
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathras View Post
Minnesota has some issues as well with digging for 'frac sand'.
While very few are being directly affected, the numbers aren't inconsequential.

Peak conventional oil happened. Technology has improved allowing as to get at more of the stuff. However, much of this new oil costs more to get, or carries bigger risks, or both.

Our economy is far too reliant on oil. There is a reason price spikes are almost always followed by recessions.

Lessening our society's dependance on oil is the best thing you can do for your retirement and future of your kids (ok, other than teaching them well).
I have to agree on the above, but we live in the present.

No way am I giving up my VW Passat diesel!
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 04:18 PM   #27
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: seattle
Posts: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888 View Post
I have to agree on the above, but we live in the present.

No way am I giving up my VW Passat diesel!

No need in any case on the passat... it would run fine on soy diesel. My little kubota tractor smells like soybeans running around the pasture and hasen't missed a beat in 12 years of the stuff.
__________________
bld999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 04:51 PM   #28
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by bld999 View Post
No need in any case on the passat... it would run fine on soy diesel. My little kubota tractor smells like soybeans running around the pasture and hasen't missed a beat in 12 years of the stuff.
Ah, the odors of alternative fuels!

These new (which mine is) clean diesels can't tolerate oils that are not spec'd in the correct cetane and lubricity range. It can handle a bit of refined biodiesel (5%), but not much else. Many of the older diesels are still on the road and I have seen a few that had 600K+ on the odo. Lots of them run on biodiesel and there are folks that have put in grease kits (french fry odor).
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 05:04 PM   #29
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: seattle
Posts: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888 View Post
Ah, the odors of alternative fuels!

These new (which mine is) clean diesels can't tolerate oils that are not spec'd in the correct cetane and lubricity range. It can handle a bit of refined biodiesel (5%), but not much else. Many of the older diesels are still on the road and I have seen a few that had 600K+ on the odo. Lots of them run on biodiesel and there are folks that have put in grease kits (french fry odor).
Ah, the new diesels...I hear they burn cleaner than gassers. The kubota is from the 80s, so it smokes a little and sucks down the bio with vigor.
__________________
bld999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 05:06 PM   #30
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
imoldernu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Peru
Posts: 4,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888 View Post
I honestly don't believe the "entire country" is being affected by an army of sand trucks rumbling by and blowing silica all over the landscape and other negative points you mention.

I have to agree that the upper midwest, especially Ohio in the Utica Shale area, is experiencing increased oil and gas production activity, but it's certainly not that big of a problem on the population. The areas with the greatest focus on new drilling (oil, not so much gas at the moment) are North Dakota, south and west Texas, and Oklahoma.

Your link requires a subscription to read the article.
Sorry about the subscription thing.
Maybe not an "entire country" situation, but not simply a single neighborhood problem either:
Quote:
U.S. Silica's Ottawa plant is North America's largest silica production facility, mining fine grain, nearly pure quartz sandstone from the St. Peter Sandstone deposits
Ottawa, IL - U.S. Silica Locations
The Utica reference here is Utica Illinois, cojoined with Ottowa. IL.

Not too much drilling or fracking in this area.
Here are the other US Silica plants.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg US Silica.jpg (29.4 KB, 7 views)
__________________
imoldernu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 05:19 PM   #31
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Lakewood90712's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888 View Post
Ah, the odors of alternative fuels!

These new (which mine is) clean diesels can't tolerate oils that are not spec'd in the correct cetane and lubricity range. It can handle a bit of refined biodiesel (5%), but not much else. Many of the older diesels are still on the road and I have seen a few that had 600K+ on the odo. Lots of them run on biodiesel and there are folks that have put in grease kits (french fry odor).
The newer diesel trucks are so clean , other than mechanical noise , you cant tell it's a diesel . 0 odors or soot , with the particle traps and blue fluid stuff. Operators aren't happy about extra cost of maintaining the traps, and buying the fluid. But it really works !

In the Los Angeles / Long beach Harbor , about 10 years ago , the air quality district was sponsoring free re powering of older marine engines. Many fishing and workboat owners jumped at the offer , and got very nice new low emission cat. engines at no cost , but complain of increased fuel use. These engines have no particle traps, and don't use the diesel exhaust fluid.

The guys who run used cooking oil sometimes have to pay for it now and fight for the free sources. ( some restaurants used to leave the cans of used oil out back , now some keep it inside and you have to bribe the dishwasher a couple of bucks if you want it)
__________________
“The finance industry is 5% rational people and 95% shamans and faith healers.” - Charlie Munger
Lakewood90712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 07:14 PM   #32
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by bld999 View Post
No need in any case on the passat... it would run fine on soy diesel. My little kubota tractor smells like soybeans running around the pasture and hasen't missed a beat in 12 years of the stuff.
Of course there will be substantially less soy (or corn, wheat or whatever) once we are out of oil/NG since petrochemicals are responsible for the remarkable crop yield explosion that we have witnessed in the last 80 years due to fertilizers and mechanization.
__________________
6miths is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 07:21 PM   #33
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6miths View Post
Of course there will be substantially less soy (or corn, wheat or whatever) once we are out of oil/NG since petrochemicals are responsible for the remarkable crop yield explosion that we have witnessed in the last 80 years due to fertilizers and mechanization.
You can make biodiesel out of animal fat and we won't be out of that! But then again, with no oil or NG, not much is going to be going on in the world as we know it.
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 07:35 PM   #34
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,417
We won't be out of it but we won't have nearly as much. We won't ever be out of oil and NG either it's just that our current population densities and consumption patterns are so dependent on petroleum that when the crunch comes it's going to really hurt unless some major innovations turn up. Or were you talking about that Soylent Green Biodiesel?
__________________
6miths is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 08:52 PM   #35
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by bld999 View Post
No need in any case on the passat... it would run fine on soy diesel. My little kubota tractor smells like soybeans running around the pasture and hasen't missed a beat in 12 years of the stuff.
Soy diesel works, but I'm not sure it makes sense on a large scale. IIRC, much more sense than corn ethanol, but still questionable. But if I had a free/cheap source, and a diesel powered something, I'd use it.

My son had a lab job with a USDA researcher working on perfecting soy bio-diesel. Pretty interesting stuff, lubricity factors and cold weather performance were the big issues they had to address I think, maybe some kind of build up issues? I think they found some catalysts that worked pretty well. Funny thing was, at about 5% soy mix, those aren't really problems. So it seems we could just blend, and not worry about it until it gained acceptance to actually use >5% overall. But I guess they were trying to anticipate that day.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 09:17 PM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Brat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,914
The new workboat diesel engines are very efficient.
__________________
Duck bjorn.
Brat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2014, 09:50 PM   #37
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Soy diesel works, but I'm not sure it makes sense on a large scale. IIRC, much more sense than corn ethanol, but still questionable. But if I had a free/cheap source, and a diesel powered something, I'd use it.

My son had a lab job with a USDA researcher working on perfecting soy bio-diesel. Pretty interesting stuff, lubricity factors and cold weather performance were the big issues they had to address I think, maybe some kind of build up issues? I think they found some catalysts that worked pretty well. Funny thing was, at about 5% soy mix, those aren't really problems. So it seems we could just blend, and not worry about it until it gained acceptance to actually use >5% overall. But I guess they were trying to anticipate that day.

-ERD50
Many states have mandated up to 5% biofuel in street use diesel (diesel with less than 15 ppm sulfur). VW and others will allow that biofuel percentage in their newer diesel powered vehicles without voiding the warranty. AFAIK, oil companies are using refined soy based biodiesel for blending.

What's creating the limitations on diesel cars in the U.S. are the tight air emission standards imposed in 2007 - 08. Common rail injection and high pressure (up to 29,000 psi) fuel pumping is now the norm in German diesels supplied here. Add particulate filters and urea injection and you meet the standards. (Particulate filters also get a regeneration cycle to give them longevity while urea (DEF) is inexpensive).

Since the high pressure fuel pump is the key for the success of common rail injection, the lubricity of the fuel need to meet ASTM spec at a minimum to keep the pump from disintegrating. Biodiesel is very high in lubricity so that is a plus. I use a fuel additive called Opti-Lube XP to assist in keeping the fuel's lubricity high. It's only a few cents per gallon, cost wise.
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 09:44 AM   #38
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Soy diesel works, but I'm not sure it makes sense on a large scale. IIRC, much more sense than corn ethanol, but still questionable. But if I had a free/cheap source, and a diesel powered something, I'd use it.
Why would soy be significantly different than corn, in that both are already a large part of food production/supply, and would thereby increase the cost of soy for both uses (fuel & food)? Ethanol from corn has pretty much proven to be a bust.

Interesting article on bio sources that might make sense It's Final -- Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use - Forbes, and why corn was folly all along.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 10:00 AM   #39
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Why would soy be significantly different than corn, in that both are already a large part of food production/supply, and would thereby increase the cost of soy for both uses (fuel & food)? Ethanol from corn has pretty much proven to be a bust.

Interesting article on bio sources that might make sense It's Final -- Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use - Forbes, and why corn was folly all along.
Good article, thanks!

These articles tend to only focus on the environmental and food chain economics of ethanol used in fuel. They never mention the cost to get it to market as it can't be pipelined (too corrosive) and there has to be additional tankage and blending equipment installed at terminals. The transportation part is quite important as it has to be trucked in most cases and that is costly and uses a lot of fuel to move the trucks.

Also, we know what damage ethanol does to small engines and to some extent, older large engines.
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 11:40 AM   #40
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Soy diesel works, but I'm not sure it makes sense on a large scale. IIRC, much more sense than corn ethanol, but still questionable. But if I had a free/cheap source, and a diesel powered something, I'd use it.
Why would soy be significantly different than corn, in that both are already a large part of food production/supply, and would thereby increase the cost of soy for both uses (fuel & food)? Ethanol from corn has pretty much proven to be a bust.

Interesting article on bio sources that might make sense It's Final -- Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use - Forbes, and why corn was folly all along.
Yes, they are both food crops, that's an issue in common.

But there are still big differences:

Soybeans are ~ 20% oil, and extracting that oil is a pretty simple and low-energy process. The oil doesn't really need much processing to be used in a blend.

Turning corn into ethanol is a multi-step, high energy process. First soak the corn with enzymes at warm temps to convert the starch to sugar. Second, cool down the heat you added so you can add yeast to convert sugar to alcohol. Third, heat it again to distill the mix to boil off ~ 85% of the water in the mix to get the ~ 15% alcohol. Takes a lot of energy to boil water. And we still have something that most cars can only use as a blend.

Further, corn requires high amounts of nitrogen fertilizer - and nitrogen fertilizer is made from.... wait for it.... petroleum!

Soybeans on the other hand, are legumes, which (in combination with bacteria) actually draw nitrogen from the air and increase the nitrogen in the soil. That's one of the reasons that farmers will rotate between soy and corn (also to break disease/pest cycles).

Overall, I'd say soy-oil fuel > corn ethanol.

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Retirement prospects and peak oil theory? kjpliny FIRE and Money 21 03-21-2006 12:52 AM
Peak Oil Marshac Young Dreamers 65 08-03-2005 09:47 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:20 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.