Penn Station (NY) Problems

[scrabbler1]

Read today they're starting ferry service from Lower Manhattan to Brooklyn, Queens, and Bronx. Would think that would alleviate some commuting congestion.

It won't help many LIRR commuters, if any at all. LIRR commuters going into Manhattan don't live in Brooklyn or the Bronx. Some live in Queens but unless they happen to live near a ferry location on the shore, they probably won't be driving to one. They'll take the bus and/or subway. LIRR commuters have few options, especially if they further east (from Manhattan). The costs and time of driving into Manhattan make that option a pretty poor one. Back in my commuting days, it took a LIRR strike to take me off the trains for more than a day or two, and I live pretty close to Queens where driving to Queens to take the subway is actually doable.

 

[MikeD]

I grew up in Cold Spring, NY in the '50s and '60's and left (GTFO) in 1973 at age 19. NY's mid-Hudson valley is one of the most beautiful places I've ever grown up in but I can't stand the culture or the taxes.

I went to school at Va Tech and then U of MD. The state of Va reminds me of NY 'cept less severe weather. I like Va.

Traffic is really bad where I live now in Loudoun and nearby Fairfax county. I am glad I stay home all day.

Mike D.

 

[meierlde]

Is that a shovel ready project?

It has actually been being activly worked on since 2006 The tunnel boring is done, major work was required in the sunnyside yard in Queens to interface the line to the Lirr: It appears the next years include building the elevators and escalators to get to the 8 new tracks installing all the communications gear, and finishing the station and adding the amenities at the lower levels of grand central. There will be two levels of tracks and a level with stores and the like in between. Note the escalators will be up to 180 feet long and descend 90 feet. Link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Side_Access

 

[Texas Proud]

The one thing that I always wondered about is the lack of train stations in NYC...

Go to London and they have many more... and there are some smaller stations where they could stop and people could catch a subway if the main terminal is closed for any reason...

 

[meierlde]

The one thing that I always wondered about is the lack of train stations in NYC...

Go to London and they have many more... and there are some smaller stations where they could stop and people could catch a subway if the main terminal is closed for any reason...

To be more specific we are talking about Manhattan. Recall that the New Yor Central used to own Grand Central and the various Metro North Lines. Until 1900 folks from other lines took a ferry to Manhattan from New Jersey. The Path train was the first trans hudson line, which replaced the ferries to some extent, and dumped you in lower Manhattan. Then the Pennsylvania Railroad built the North River tunnels from 1904 to 1908 and enabled trains to run to Manhattan at obviously Pennsylvania Station. The pennsylvania also ran the LIRR so it dug the tunnels under the east river to get to Penn station. In the good old days there were ferrys from Hunters Point and other areas into Manhattan (pre 1908 or so).
Fundamentally Manhattan was limited to only 1 railroad until 1908 because of the need to build briges or tunnels accross the Hudson. (and to a lesser extent accross the east river) being on an Island you could not have multiple rail lines serving the city like London or Paris, without major bridge/tunnel building expenses.

 

[scrabbler1]

The one thing that I always wondered about is the lack of train stations in NYC...

Go to London and they have many more... and there are some smaller stations where they could stop and people could catch a subway if the main terminal is closed for any reason...

The New York City subway system has 472 stations, according to Wikipedia. The commuter rail lines such as the Long Island Rail Road don't have many stations within the city limits, however. Those rail lines are designed for longer distance travel than the subway lines, so the stations are further apart. Furthermore, most of those stations within NYC are large and are designed to handle many, many passengers compared to the smaller stations designed to handle much fewer riders.

The major LIRR stations within NYC such as Penn Station have connections with NYC subway stations, so many passengers took the subway to other major LIRR stations such as the ones in Brooklyn and Jamaica. Back in my working days when my company was located in lower Manhattan, if I learned about Penn Station problems before I left my office, I would take the subway to Brooklyn and bypass those problems. But not all LIRR riders have a choice - they have to go into Penn Station or face a bigger inconvenience trying to use a different major station.

 

[Texas Proud]

The New York City subway system has 472 stations, according to Wikipedia. The commuter rail lines such as the Long Island Rail Road don't have many stations within the city limits, however. Those rail lines are designed for longer distance travel than the subway lines, so the stations are further apart. Furthermore, most of those stations within NYC are large and are designed to handle many, many passengers compared to the smaller stations designed to handle much fewer riders.

The major LIRR stations within NYC such as Penn Station have connections with NYC subway stations, so many passengers took the subway to other major LIRR stations such as the ones in Brooklyn and Jamaica. Back in my working days when my company was located in lower Manhattan, if I learned about Penn Station problems before I left my office, I would take the subway to Brooklyn and bypass those problems. But not all LIRR riders have a choice - they have to go into Penn Station or face a bigger inconvenience trying to use a different major station.

The number of stations in London is huge... even the number in central London (zone 1 or 1/2, this does not include zone 2 only) is 22...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_London_railway_stations

The London train stations also do a brisk business....


Based on 2013-2014 Total passenger entry and exit statistics[67] Rank Station Yearly passengers 1 Waterloo 98,442,742 2 Victoria 81,356,330 3 Liverpool Street 63,004,002 4 London Bridge 56,442,044 5 Euston 41,911,706 6 Charing Cross 40,170,074 7 Paddington 35,093,628 8 King's Cross 29,823,715 9 Stratford 26,377,506 10 St. Pancras 26,046,082 11 Clapham Junction 25,287,250 12 East Croydon 21,797,189 13 Cannon Street 20,689,022 14 Vauxhall 19,401,716 15 Wimbledon 19,302,216 16 Fenchurch Street 18,244,526 17 Highbury & Islington 15,840,018 18 Marylebone 15,520,762 19 Blackfriars 14,412,166 20 Putney 10,933,750 21 Richmond 9,533,696 22 Surbiton 9,206,902 23 Moorgate 9,051,956 24 Lewisham 8,669,820 25 Barking 8,330,632


I could not find out how many passengers go thru Grand Central... but I would bet it is more than Waterloo... I did see where it said it had 21 mill visitors, but that talked about tourists...

I did find that Penn serves 600,000 per day, but I do not know if that includes weekends and holidays... so in the range of 140 mill to 219 mill... it also serves more than Grand Central (surprising to me)... from Wiki...

Serving more than 600,000 commuter rail and Amtrak passengers a day, it is the busiest passenger transportation facility in the Western Hemisphere.

​

I am just saying that I am a bit surprised that NY only has 2 major stations... in London it is expected that you take the train to the edge and then the subway to where you want to go.... in NY you get to the center and then transfer....

I could see a big station over in Brooklyn or Queens with subway lines into the city....

 

[meierlde]

Geography is the reason there is no big station on Long Island.
London has so many stations for the same reason Chicago used to have 9 central railroad stations. Each was built for a different railroad company (in the 19th century railroads in the UK where private) Each RR tended to go a different direction from London just like was true in Chicago.
In the case of NYC Travelers from the west would have had to go thru Manhattan to get there. You could have built the terminal station for the New Haven RR which ran to Boston, and from upstate New York, but recall when the original pattern of NYC was set NYC was Manhattan only. The Harlem railroad ran south to 14th street when first built in 1833. Manhattan banned steam locomotives south of 42 street in 1865 so the first grand central terminal was built. (Recall that a lot of Manhattan was farm land in the mid 19th century.)
Actually today long distance rail only uses Penn station and Grand Central is really for metro north, although the LIRR will call there starting 2023. This is actually the model for German cities with a Hauptbahnhof where the long distance trains run from and local suburban stations for local trains (Hauptbahnhof=main train station) The difference is that from the beginning in Germany it was felt that railroads should be run by the government(s) So you had the Prussian railroads, the Bavarian railroads, the Saxon Railroads etc. Thus the idea of a central station where all long distance trains stop (as well as a terminus for local trains). Interestingly the same holds in Rome with Termni station.

 

[scrabbler1]

Any of you here have to deal with what has been escribed in local media as "the Summer of Hell" with all the construction at Penn Station this summer forcing a 20% reduction in rush hour train service? The LIRR and New Jersey Transit will be the most affected.


I am sooooooooooo glad I don't have to deal with this crap any more!

 

[MarieIG]

DH works in Manhattan six days a week, takes the LIRR 5 and drives in on the weekends. My job requires me to travel into the City approximately 3-4 x a week. The LIRR has not been getting stellar grades lately anyway. Last Thurs (with subway & LIRR) took me 2 1/2 hours to get from Manhattan to office in Western Nassau County. (My train out of Atlantic Terminal, which was allegedly online, got into Jamaica late so I missed the connection and had to wait - and wait). Of course there is the commute from my office home, but that is only about 35 minutes.