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Old 05-19-2008, 08:54 PM   #21
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In fact, Dept of Justice, Bureau of Statistics stats show that most homeowners who are shot while searching for an intruder are shot with their own weapons.
One of my favorite gun-control commercials is the teenager sneaking back into the house, only to be targeted by his gun-totin' father...

The submarine force doesn't even permit its sailors to insert a clip until they're positive that deadly force is an issue. In fact, they've been trained so hard about not doing so that they'd probably hesitate until it's too late.
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:39 PM   #22
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:44 AM   #23
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Does it makes sense to yell out "Who's there?", especially if your family is all upstairs with you? Any problem with that, assuming you don't have an unaccounted kid who wears headphones around the house, or someone deaf in the family or who has a key?
Yes, that is a viable option. Any type of response should include roll call of family members. Tougher for those with teenagers coming and going at, what are to ME, unreasonable hours.

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just let them know you are there, and let them run. Something that this made me realize, and I never gave much thought to before, is that we should all be keeping our cell phones in the bedroom. It sounds like a warning shout-out and a cell phone is a better self defense plan than a gun for most people.
One of the first things we teach in disturbance control is to ALWAYS leave an exit path, to avoid unnecessary confrontation. Keeping the cell phone is your bedroom is an excellent idea. There is still a booming market in cell phones too, because most of us don't "lock" them out. And since it is pocket sized almost guaranteed to be picked up by the perp, for a quick buck. Whether it's a better call to have or not have a gun, well, that's a personal decision. Me, I almost always have one on my person. My father went his entire life and never owned a handgun, much less carried one.

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Warning call, cell phone call AND gun seems like the optimum situation....Police are not able to protect citizens during a break-in, etc. They come as quickly as they can, but I'm sure it will seem like hours to the folks in the house....That's one potential advantage of an alarm system: While false alarms are a problem, at least there's something in addition to "I think I heard a noise."
I don't want to denigrate my brother officers, but samclem is right. The police can not protect you effectively. We aren't willing to have enough of them, nor pay their salaries. We get there as quick as we can, but it's a matter of priorities. Do we go to the "possible intruder" or do we go to the "shots fired"?

My alarm system is an Airedale with a wicked set of choppers and a Chocolate Lab who makes A LOT of noise but is harmless (I think).

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No guns in my house, nothing good is going to happen with guns. I'll take my chances and hope for the best.
To each their own.

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It seems that in the vast majority of what are already rare cases, the intruder will be scared off by someone calling out, with or without a firearm. The noise of a pistol being shot, after yelling 'get out of my house', would add one more level of protection, without any potential risks.
I wouldn't count on this. You have to understand a couple of things about the criminal psyche. First, they are extremely ego-maniacal. Their tiniest want is more important than anyone else's most
severe need. which in turn leads to the next point. They always believe they are too smart to get caught, or if caught they believe they are too strong/dangerous to be captured. In their minds; good people/victims are nothing more than mindless, weak, and scared sheep. And they are the powerful, cunning, and strong wolves.

Don't EVEN think of getting that starting pistol. Better to just cower in your bedroom and take your chances with nothing. The first rule of gunfighting, BRING A GUN!! Don't fake it. Why would you think of starting a gun fight knowing that you don't have anything but blanks?

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One of my favorite gun-control commercials is the teenager sneaking back into the house, only to be targeted by his gun-totin' father...The submarine force doesn't even permit its sailors to insert a clip until they're positive that deadly force is an issue. In fact, they've been trained so hard about not doing so that they'd probably hesitate until it's too late.
That's why roll call is so important...Yep, you fight the way you train. If you aren't going to train realistically, don't be surprised when the fight doesn't go your way.

My own bi-weekly training regimen includes marksmanship, timed stress-fire courses, frequent night firing exercises, and multiple targets. I have my buddy set up the range with friendly/non-friendly targets to force decision making. He also deliberately creates weapons malfunctions such as hang-fired rounds, non-ejected spent rounds, stovepipe jams, and magazines which are not fully seated. He then puts the weapon in my holster and I have to clear and fire within prescribed time limits. As you can see, I take my defense seriously. I also shoot often enough that these things are second nature to me, and I never score below 95% in either qualification or competition. (It's kind of like sailing, any time two or more are together it's a competition, even if it isn't.)
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:17 AM   #24
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....

One of the first things we teach in disturbance control is to ALWAYS leave an exit path, to avoid unnecessary confrontation. Keeping the cell phone is your bedroom is an excellent idea.

....

You have to understand a couple of things about the criminal psyche. First, they are extremely ego-maniacal. Their tiniest want is more important than anyone else's most severe need. which in turn leads to the next point. They always believe they are too smart to get caught, or if caught they believe they are too strong/dangerous to be captured. ...


Don't EVEN think of getting that starting pistol. Better to just cower in your bedroom and take your chances with nothing.

...

My own bi-weekly training regimen includes marksmanship, timed stress-fire courses, frequent night firing exercises, and multiple targets.....
Thanks for the input. This is valuable, to hear it from people who have had to deal with this stuff.

I would have thought the 'typical' intruder would be afraid of getting caught, and run at any sign of detection. Interesting to hear your view. Of course, if they are high (maybe that *is* typical), there is no telling what they are/aren't thinking.

Now, if I was already a permitted gun owner, enjoyed the hobby, and spent time regularly training, I'm sure that I would keep the firearm and ammo safely stowed in the bedroom, just in case. But, given the odds and risks, I personally just don't see myself going through the effort to add that extra layer of protection. Again, I have no issue at all with anyone who does, as long as they act responsibly.

One reservation that I may have though - maybe one of the law enforcement people can shed light on this. I do know homeowners who have had their homes broken into when no one was there, and their firearms were stolen. Now, a firearm is in the hands of bad guys. I wonder if a firearm in the home is more likely to save someone, or fall into criminal hands? I'm not trying to start any controversy with that question, just curious if there are any statistics.

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Old 05-20-2008, 09:41 AM   #25
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I am not aware of any stats on that particular comparison. Sorry.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:08 AM   #26
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One reservation that I may have though - maybe one of the law enforcement people can shed light on this. I do know homeowners who have had their homes broken into when no one was there, and their firearms were stolen. Now, a firearm is in the hands of bad guys. I wonder if a firearm in the home is more likely to save someone, or fall into criminal hands?
-ERD50
I'm not an expert, but my opinion is that guns are so common and so readily available that the practical impact of another one in criminal hands is relatively minor. Sure, I'd feel bad if a gun of mine was stolen and then traced to a later homicide. But, from a practical standpoint, gold bracelet --> $150 --> handgun nearly as quickly.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:18 AM   #27
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People who go looking for trouble in the dark quite often find it. In fact, Dept of Justice, Bureau of Statistics stats show that most homeowners who are shot while searching for an intruder are shot with their own weapons.
I missed this when I read your post originally. I've looked all over the BJS section on guns and crime and can't find the report you're referencing. Can you give me the link?
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One reservation that I may have though - maybe one of the law enforcement people can shed light on this. I do know homeowners who have had their homes broken into when no one was there, and their firearms were stolen. Now, a firearm is in the hands of bad guys. I wonder if a firearm in the home is more likely to save someone, or fall into criminal hands? I'm not trying to start any controversy with that question, just curious if there are any statistics.
Cobbled this together from several different studies on BJS's gun crime page. Older stats from BJS (1995) show gun ownership in US at 233 million, 300,000+ stolen each year, and 40% of those are recovered. Of the 300,000 stolen guns, 200,000+ come from burglaries. So, roughly 180,000 guns are stolen each year and never officially recovered. I say "officially" because a fair number of people who have guns stolen don't have a clue what the serial number is. Unless an investigation is able to track a gun from the theft to the offender you won't be able to tell if any of the thousands upon thousands of guns taken as evidence by law enforcement are stolen. Anecdotally, I have seized countless guns under circumstances that led me to believe they were stolen, but a check of the serial number in NCIC failed to find any record of the theft.

BJS also included info from a survey of prison inmates in one state (who knows how honest those bastards were in answering the questions) and found that of the offenders who had carried weapons during the commission of an offense, 9% were carrying a gun they had stolen and 28% had bought it from an illegal source (thus indicating that it was most likely stolen).
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:19 AM   #28
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Letting someone have the silverware is probably cheaper in the long run than having to replaster and replace the carpet. The one time I had someone in the house, as I was pointing the double barrel 12 guage at him, all I could think was that the kitchen was going to be a mess.

Even though I could outfit a couple of platoons, I added an extra exit to the room I sleep in, and my dog sleeps in the same room as I do. This is in a town where I can leave for a few days and not lock the door. Sometimes flight is better than fight.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:52 AM   #29
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Letting someone have the silverware is probably cheaper in the long run than having to replaster and replace the carpet. The one time I had someone in the house, as I was pointing the double barrel 12 guage at him, all I could think was that the kitchen was going to be a mess.....
Had a tenant who was quite responsible - paid his rent, 4 days later called 911 and told them he was going to kill himself, left his front door unlocked, and shot himself in the head on his bed. Police were onsite in about 10 minutes and took care of removing the body. There are very expensive cleaning services who come out and bag up and remove carpet and mattress and such and do a cursory cleaning. After that it is difficult and expensive to get regular cleaning and repair people in to bring the place back up to rentable condition - one of those times when the landlord gets to do a lot of the work. Not fun. Re-renting isn't very fun either. We went with all new paint and carpet throughout to give the new tenant fresh surfaces. Took a some years and has had saveral coats of paint since then, but i still know where we had to patch the hole in the wall - shooting someone yourself would take things to a different level.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:01 AM   #30
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This has me thinking... when I build the new house, it wouldn't be all that expensive to put a trap door in front of the bedroom. It's just my wife and I, so it'd be easy to account for everyone. Maybe record a chainsaw to play on the stereo.

I could easily hook up a turret with pepper spray on it and mount it with a network camera over the door, high enough to not be able to reach.

Gotta fight crazy with crazy!

If I ever were to bring a gun into the house, I think I'd want to go with a bio-reader or something: NRA BioVault 2.0 - Fingerprint Gun Safe

It seems that you need to walk a line between 'easy to get to in an emergency' and 'easy to walk away with in a burglary'
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:02 PM   #31
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The guy in my house was drunk and a block off from his new girl friend's place. He sobered up pretty quickly when he noticed the shotgun. I was 24 and had just gotten home from work at 2:30 am. I was working nights so that I could go to school on the GI Bill. He was lucky that I learned as a draftee that if one wants to come out on top. it is often prudent to not fire until all other options have elapsed.

If one had the nerve for it, I would imagine that one could sit quietly in a dark room and not be noticed. I have had people darn near step on me in the dark and not know I was there.
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Old 05-20-2008, 12:49 PM   #32
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What do you folks think of keeping a Taser or pepper spray handy in case of a home intrusion? So far I haven't been willing to take on the risk/responsibility of keeping a firearm, but am looking for ways to protect myself while also minimizing the risks to my family of an accidental misfire or case of mistaken identity.
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:05 PM   #33
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What do you folks think of keeping a Taser or pepper spray handy in case of a home intrusion? So far I haven't been willing to take on the risk/responsibility of keeping a firearm, but am looking for ways to protect myself while also minimizing the risks to my family of an accidental misfire or case of mistaken identity.
Pepper spray: Per a recent post by Leatherneck PA (see below) http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...tml#post656288

the stuff is not magic. If you can see that a physical confrontation is coming/has started, then I guess it might put you in a better position to fight/run relative to where you'd be without it. But, I wouldn't think it would be good to count on it.

Taser: Don't know.

One thing that military forces have discovered when fielding "less than lethal" weapons: They further complicate an already complex/confusing situation. More decisions to make, more possibilities for mistakes and delays. There was one example in Haiti when a small vehicle with a driver and three other MPs got engulfed by a mob. The crowd was all over the vehicle, and somebody with a knife approached from the side and stabbed a female MP while another MP was applying pepper spray. Clearly the Beretta was what he should have been using, but the pepper spray was the first thing that came to mind/hand.

That's not to say that less-than-lethal weapons are a bad thing, but their fielding is not without "cost."
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:14 PM   #34
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I have been in the position of stopping a home intruder with a gun, and I never made it to the statistics (thankfully).

Back when I was in college I called the police on a neighbor who had refused to turn down his stereo (during finals week no less) late into the evening. Finally I got fed up and called the police. The police wrote him an expensive ticket for noise violation. As soon as the officers left this guy called his posse over and they started trying to break my door down. I looked out the window and saw five large guys pounding on my door demanding I come out.

I made my girlfriend hide in the bathroom (ok, she ran there without my help) as our door started breaking loose. I pulled out my Sig Sauer P226 9mm and opened the window and told the crowd that if anybody came in I would start shooting.

I am VERY glad I did not have to fire a shot, but I will never leave my home undefended. Had I been smarter at the time I would have had a shotgun handy. I strongly believe that the sound of racking a Remington 870 is the scariest sound known to man and will make even the most hardened criminal reconsider his career

I have several close friends and one relative who are cops. I love them dearly and they work very hard, but they will admit that in life or death situations they come to draw chalk lines and take reports.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:04 PM   #35
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If one had the nerve for it, I would imagine that one could sit quietly in a dark room and not be noticed. I have had people darn near step on me in the dark and not know I was there.
LOL, as a sniper in the Corps (peace time only, thankfully no combat experience there) I actually had a platoon set up base camp around me one night. I got walked on twice. They broke camp in the morning and walked off never even knowing I was there. Toughest part for me was staying awake. I snore something awful and obviously could not afford the noise.

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What do you folks think of keeping a Taser or pepper spray handy in case of a home intrusion? So far I haven't been willing to take on the risk/responsibility of keeping a firearm, but am looking for ways to protect myself while also minimizing the risks to my family of an accidental misfire or case of mistaken identity.
As samclem said, I'm not a big fan of pepper spray. I'm all to familiar with what one can do despite it. However, HOLLYWOOD and COPS has actually proven beneficial there as they perpetuate the instantaneous disability myth for all the dopes to see and believe.

Now tasers, that is a whole different story altogether. When I made LT I had to certify to carry one. Part of that certification is what they euphemistically call "effect familiarization" In other words, I had to get hit with it. NEVER AGAIN!! No thank you!! I have all kinds of respect for those darned things. Knocked me straight down, and kept me down until that SOB let go of the trigger. And I'm a big boy, 6'2" and 320 at the time. Nope, won't EVER fight one of those again. You know on COPS when the knucklehead is on the ground sizzlin' like bacon and screaming? Well, that ain't fake. Trust me.

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I have several close friends and one relative who are cops. I love them dearly and they work very hard, but they will admit that in life or death situations they come to draw chalk lines and take reports.
Sad, but true.
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Old 05-21-2008, 03:35 AM   #36
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U.S. shooters feel pinch as ammo costs soar - Yahoo! News

I would be shooting more intruders if it wasnt for the runaway inflation...
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:29 AM   #37
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The big issue in self protection is law suits. very rarely is everything black and white, even inside your house. being cleared criminally is one thing but a civil suit can cost you dearly.

even if your innocent it can cost you 50,000 bucks to start in a civil suit just for a lawyer. oh yeah your insurance policy dosnt cover your suit as shooting someone in self-defence is intentional not accidental ..

was he trying to flee from you when you shot him?

everything in most states is tit for tat. he was trying to steal your radio from your car (a petty larceny). you confronted him with a gun. now you are threatning his life and your the criminal. self defence is usually based on equal force. he punches you , you punch him. he punches you, you hit with a bat. your screwed! you may confront someone on your property and hes stealing something, you dont pull the gun but have it on your person hidden. you end up squabbling with the bad guy, he feels the gun and starts fighting you over it. in the scuffle hes shot. your screwed again. you having a weapon caused it to escalate.


suppose there are 2 bad guys and they are un-armed and beating you. you shoot one bad guy, do you still have the right to sho0t the 2nd or are the forces closer to equal?


as you can see with few exceptions a civil suit is coming either by the bad guy or his heirs....
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:42 AM   #38
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The big issue in self protection is law suits. very rarely is everything black and white, even inside your house. being cleared criminally is one thing but a civil suit can cost you dearly.

even if your innocent it can cost you 50,000 bucks to start in a civil suit just for a lawyer. oh yeah your insurance policy dosnt cover your suit as shooting someone in self-defence is intentional not accidental ..

Ask your agent about adding "errors and omissions" coverage on your homeowners policy.

Real cheap and covers that sort of thing.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:28 AM   #39
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The big issue in self protection is law suits. very rarely is everything black and white, even inside your house. being cleared criminally is one thing but a civil suit can cost you dearly.
You're right, it's a good idea to keep one of these around

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Old 05-21-2008, 08:34 AM   #40
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