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Old 12-05-2008, 12:45 PM   #61
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Good article in NY Times about piracy today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/op...05burgess.html
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Old 12-05-2008, 01:39 PM   #62
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I wonder how they got that way.
Prophet motive?
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Old 12-05-2008, 01:46 PM   #63
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Prophet motive?
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:36 PM   #64
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Good article in NY Times about piracy today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/op...05burgess.html
Piracy is a crime against civilization makes sense to me. I imagine it is just urban folklore but don't ship captain have a lot of judicial power at high sea?

Have the world's Navy captains, mysteriously lose communications right after capturing pirates, conduct a trial, convict the pirates. Sadly I guess hanging is out of fashion but alternatively put the incarceration of the pirates up to competitive bid. I bet some place like one of the Stans, Vietnam, or Indonesia would be happy to make a small profit imprisoning pirates.

Once pirates realize they'll be rotting away in prison twenty years in one of those gardens spots, it would change behavior.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:04 PM   #65
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Please somebody tell me that because this an America crew this time that. We will deal with the pirates in a much more aggressive fashion.

What ever happened to millions for defense not once cent for tribute, which was the rallying cry when the US Navy was 3rd rate back in 1800..
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:11 PM   #66
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They're holding the Captain hostage in a lifeboat right? What are the options here?

- his employer negotiates a ransom for his release
- attempt to free him and deal with captors

Is option #2 a reasonable military operation in the sea? I'd assume it would involve middle of night and a seal team, but it still sounds dangerous to the hostage.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:52 PM   #67
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They're holding the Captain hostage in a lifeboat right? What are the options here?

- his employer negotiates a ransom for his release
- attempt to free him and deal with captors

Is option #2 a reasonable military operation in the sea? I'd assume it would involve middle of night and a seal team, but it still sounds dangerous to the hostage.

Ok maybe I've been watching too much "24" and I am sure a rescue attempt would dangerous but. The Captain is only one guy, and the rational behind not negotiating with terrorist/pirates etc is that if we reward a behavior it only encourages more of it.

If, I was in charge, I'd tell the pirates. If the want to live release the hostage. I'd also steal a page from the Russian and Israelis play book, find out some of their names and threaten to kill their families.
Now I wouldn't actually kill families , but I am sure life is so cheap in that region that one could pay rival warlord to kill pirates and their families. In fact part of me hopes some shipping line CEO is sufficiently ruthless to figure out that it is cheaper to take out hit contracts to kill the pirates than to have pay ransom and higher insurance rates.

At some point countries need to fight back, this situation with only one innocent life at stake seems ideal. "Don't Tread on Me" is pretty good slogan.
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:06 PM   #68
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My solution~ Hand Grenades and plenty of them, tossed over the side and into those Zodiacs. Err, maybe I spent too much time in the infantry...but I still like my simple idea.
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:10 PM   #69
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Think i heard the boat w/ pirates & captain/hostage is out of gas. Hard on the captain, but think waiting for a few days might improve negotiations. Shoot - maybe even provide water & rations after a while.
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Old 04-09-2009, 07:30 PM   #70
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very good article here...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/10/wo...nted=1&_r=1&hp
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Old 04-09-2009, 07:59 PM   #71
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Thanks for the link. I didn't realize it was only 4 pirates. At one point I heard 8-10.
Rescuing a hostage in this situation can't be that hard. Get a bunch of Marine snipers on the Bainbridge wait until night shot the pirates. Problem solved.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:58 PM   #72
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Piracy is a crime against civilization makes sense to me. I imagine it is just urban folklore but don't ship captain have a lot of judicial power at high sea?

Have the world's Navy captains, mysteriously lose communications right after capturing pirates, conduct a trial, convict the pirates. Sadly I guess hanging is out of fashion but alternatively put the incarceration of the pirates up to competitive bid. I bet some place like one of the Stans, Vietnam, or Indonesia would be happy to make a small profit imprisoning pirates.

Once pirates realize they'll be rotting away in prison twenty years in one of those gardens spots, it would change behavior.
I'm all for tough enforcement and defensive measures, I think they can work. But I don't think we should count on deterrence being very effective in this case. These Somalis are desperately poor, and a successful pirate operation promises money and status that cannot be obtained any other way in that country. They have very little to lose.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:14 PM   #73
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They have very little to lose.
The international community needs to send them a clear message that they have nothing to win.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:00 PM   #74
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I wonder if Navy could signal to the Captain their intentions for a rescue. Could Somalian pirates read morse code from a signal light?

Western - there is always something to win... it's too much ocean, too many potential target ships passing thru, too many poor people willing to roll the dice for a payout that seems large by our standards must be astronomical to them.

I'm completely against threatening their families or hire anyone to kill their families. That is no different than killing the family of someone who robs a grocery store. I'm no softie here if there is a way to kill these pirates, drown 'em, whatever fine but a family member who hasn't done anything makes no sense.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:09 PM   #75
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I wonder if Navy could signal to the Captain their intentions for a rescue. Could Somalian pirates read morse code from a signal light?

Western - there is always something to win... it's too much ocean, too many potential target ships passing thru, too many poor people willing to roll the dice for a payout that seems large by our standards must be astronomical to them.

I'm completely against threatening their families or hire anyone to kill their families. That is no different than killing the family of someone who robs a grocery store. I'm no softie here if there is a way to kill these pirates, drown 'em, whatever fine but a family member who hasn't done anything makes no sense.
I don't agree with threatening or harming their families, either. But, to use a little pirate terminolgy: "no quarter! hang the scurvy dogs from the yard arm.. send 'em to Davy Jones locker...aaarggh"
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:40 AM   #76
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The international community needs to send them a clear message that they have nothing to win.
I agree. I realize the Somalia is an absolute basket case and killing some pirates isn't going to stop all of them. But killing pirate who attack the relatively small number of American flagged ships, may work. We spent 170 Billion on the Navy last year. it isn't unreasonable for us taxpayers to expect that they can handle some pissant pirates.

The current approach which is to offer no resistance and pay ransoms clearly isn't working well.

I'll admit going after families is crossing the line, but a big chunk of the population in Somalia consider the US the great Satan. I long ago gave up on Americans being loved in that region. So at this point I'll settle for them being completely terrified of us.
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:01 AM   #77
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These pirates use anti-tank rockets with range of several miles, and RPGs with about a half mile range. The tankers are essentially unarmed except for small arms. They can position themselves ahead of the tanker and wait for the tanker to close to weapons range. By the time you spotted a fast running boat on radar and took evasive action it would close within range of their weapons. At that point your only options are to try to outrun it or go up in flames with your ship and your cargo. Even if you armed the tanker and trained the crews, you would still be sitting on top of a bomb as you exchanged fire. Not a good option.

I knew a tanker captain who used to run into Pirates in the far east. This wasn't an oil tanker, and the pirates weren't as well armed, they just had small arms. His tactic, which is still used, is to open up the fire hoses as they ran that stretch.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:22 AM   #78
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Wonder if a guy in a scuba suit could swim underneath the lifeboat and drill or dissolve a hole in the lifeboat hull, thereby causing it to sink. It would accelerate the pirates' end game scenario. Maybe they would be forced to go overboard and make themselves subject to getting picked off by gunfire/sniper fire. Can snipers even operate from a vessel bobbing in the water?
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:33 AM   #79
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Captain tried to escape pirates, U.S. official says - CNN.com

Captain tried to make a swim for it but they dragged him back to the lifeboat, Navy sending two more ships.

I assume the extra ships are for intimidation purposes... the article mentions one has guided missiles, come on what are they going to launch a harpoon missile at a lifeboat? If they wanted to take out the boat they could easily do it with the 50 cals and 25s on the Bainbridge.
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:12 AM   #80
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I can't imagine a more miserable submarine mission than loitering around shipping lanes near pirate-infested areas.

Besides the cost of putting the ordnance on target probably exceeds the value of the ransom-- so far. The pirates have to tread a fine line between mordida and mortality.
We'd need to bring the costs way down. Maybe use decommisioned diesel subs, and find retired submariners who could still fit into their uniforms. Haircut regs could be relaxed.

Or we could bring in the AF and carpet bomb the whole thing, tankers included. Problem solved.
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