Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-11-2006, 07:52 PM   #101
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
But Saluki, under the law Bush rushed through, Hillary could arrest you for no reason at all and keep you for her nefarious purposes for as long as she liked. You would have no right to demand a reason - what the hell, she wouldn't even have to acknowledge she had you. Keep in mind, these restrictions on our rights are tools for whoever is in charge. The wonderful caring neo-cons who America just didn't understand, or the evil secular humanists who are pounding at the doors.
You deserve a gold star! Exactly the point.
__________________

__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-11-2006, 07:54 PM   #102
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
Brewer is losing touch with reality IMHO. Okay with me. I'm just
havin' fun here.

JG
Hahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaah!!!!!

JG, you've never had any clue what reality is, so I don't exactly imagine that you are much of a judge of how close anyone is to it.
__________________

__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-11-2006, 08:23 PM   #103
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 714
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Martha,
Quote:
Let's see, a liberal believes in individual freedom, tolerance and generosity. This is what I believe.
And, it is what I believe, and what most libertarians believe, in my experience. The generosity part can get a bit fuzzy ... based upon various other posts from you, my perception is that you believe also in forced generosity ... such as taking from some, to give to others, and doing so under penalty of force. And, liberals don't believe in individual freedom when it comes to things like self defense and so-called "gun control".

While I am not an anarchist (which you begin to confuse with libertarians), I do believe in very minimal government. Libertarians are not of one mold any more than are so-called "liberals".

Quote:
"Libertarianism is the view that each person has the right to his life in any way he chooses so long as he or she respects the equal rights of others. Libertarians defend each person's right to life, liberty and property-rights that people have naturally, before governments are created. In the Libertarian view, all human relationships should be voluntary; the only actions that should be forbidden by law are those that involve the initiation of force against those who have not themselves uses force-actions like murder, robbery, rape, kidnapping and fraud."
-- Charles Murray, author, What it Means to Be a Libertarian
Actually, Martha, if you examine history, you find that many, many things Americans now take for granted must come from government, at one time did come from the private sector.

Quote:
You cannot have a society without rules.
Libertarians don't suggest we wouldn't have any rules. You exaggerate the philosophy, creating the classic straw man in order to attack what you perhaps have never truly examined. This is a common method used to attack the concept of less government and more liberty.

Quote:
Regarding eminent domain, know that a sovereign nation has the power to take from anyone unless the people in that nation agree to restrict their government.
I'm referring to Kelo v. New London, as I suspect you realize(see http://www.ij.org/private_property/c...cut/index.html). At one time, Americans understood their homes and businesses might be taken to construct a public road ... but now the the "conservative" Supreme Court you fear has taken the position that governments can seize private property for reasons much more specious and nebulous. Conservative indeed. Be honest here ... this has nothing to do with "... the building and maintaining of infrastructure like roads, sewers, etc.".

And,
Quote:
Charles, do you really believe that the liberals here are the sort of liberals that are of the same ilk as the purported socialists with a bloody history?
? Frankly, Martha, I believe the main difference between a "liberal" and a bloody liberal is their degree of power. I spent a good deal of time working on behalf of environmental causes, and in those fights I met my share of liberals ... everything from the garden variety "small is good", to Stalinists. There is a stone's throw from those who feel we need to simply tax others a bit more (effectively at the point of a gun) to support their pet charity, to a more strident view that government need only seize the assets to use as it pleases. And, if the selfish rich refuse, then that "liberal" government will deal harshly with them.

Don't get me wrong ... I think there are many nice, decent, but naive people who simply want to do good ... but they want to do it by seizing my property and yours. Generosity? Some taxes are reasonable, but the true "liberal" usually can't articulate the limit to taxation. If you want generosity, then give away to your pet causes, as I do.

Finally, I think we saw an excellent example of where that liberal power leads when we witnessed the insanity of recent anti-self defense efforts. While Clinton and Reno were party to the deaths of scores of children, mothers and fathers over the latters' alleged involvement with illegal weapons, their party attempted to pass all manner of additional restrictions on private firearms ownership ... "for the children". Such restrictions have an infamous history, ignored by pseudo-intellectuals who refuse to study the past. And the political methods used by the "liberals" in this cause were disingenuous at best, and usually outright lies when reviewed in detail. Examine carefully the evolution of so-called "liberal" philosophy, and it is at least as bloody as so-called "conservative" philosophy. (Read "That Every Man Be Armed" by Halbrook for a fascinating look at self defense history.)

And now we have the lying liberals back in power, taking the place of lying conservatives. I feel so much better now. At least the conservatives got the fact that we are at war with radical Islamists ... I suspect the liberals will now try to be nice to them ...

What I find fascinating on this forum in particular is that so many who take responsibility for their own lives, their own families, and their own futures, are so willing to embrace failed "liberal" philosophy. And, to optimistically believe that "liberal" government will be so much better than that we've witnessed with Bush et al. I would have thought a forum filled with more mature individuals, most if not all who have created wealth by their own hard work, would bridle against so-called "liberal" solutions. Quite ironic.




__________________
Craig is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-11-2006, 08:39 PM   #104
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
And, to optimistically believe that "liberal" government will be so much better than that we've witnessed with Bush et al.
Are you retarded or something? Been living under a rock for 6 years? How could you possibly characterize King George's reign of terror as anything other than driving the country into a ditch?

Why is it a shock to find that many of us are deeply troubled by the mounting gubmint debt over the last 5 or 6 years? We all know that whatever you spend eventually has to be paid back eventually, and with interest if it is later. None of us would consider hgoing on a drunken spending spree with credit cards and no obvious way to pay it back, yet that is exactly what our gubmint bin doin' the last several years. Yeah, taxes will be going up to pay for all of this stuff. Where did you think the money was going to come from? The Tooth Fairy?
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-11-2006, 08:42 PM   #105
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 714
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

brewer, you are a crude fool, and I won't engage an unarmed man.
__________________
Craig is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-11-2006, 09:23 PM   #106
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Charles, we are so far apart that I don't think we can even have a discussion.
I have examined history. Life was short, nasty and brutish. I don't long for the past. We are better than that.




__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-11-2006, 09:25 PM   #107
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 714
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Agreed, Martha, there is a gulf.

The past, too often, is prologue ... some things don't change.
__________________
Craig is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 02:35 AM   #108
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,278
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Martha...

Here is one of the problems I have with 'liberals'.. they want government to fix most or all of the problems and tax the heck out of me to do it...

Let me give you a very small example... and very local.. there is a small group in my neighborhood who has been trying to get curbside recycling.... when they first proposed it, it would have cost each house $7 per month.. got voted down... but they brought it up the next year... voted down... and again... stopped for I think two, maybe three years... brought it back up again this year without much knowledge and slipped it through... will cost us $3 per month...

Now, I have no problem with recycling... but it should pay for itself... OR if you want it pay for it yourself, but don't make ME pay for YOUR recycling...

Now, expand that example to many other items out there... that is what I have a problem with 'liberals'...

I think government is there for streets, schools, defense, laws etc... but we spend billions on farm subsidies, on welfare for people who don't need it.. on welfare for people who DO, but never get off... for private sector businesses that should pay their own way (how many stadiums do you have in YOUR city... well, we have a LOT and some are empty)...

EVEN THEN.. with all this, I would be happy with this 'waste' if the government taxed us 'reasonably' (that is 25% for all government in studies) and only could spend what they brought in....

Wishful thinking....
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 05:28 AM   #109
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
Martha...

Here is one of the problems I have with 'liberals'.. they want government to fix most or all of the problems and tax the heck out of me to do it...

Let me give you a very small example... and very local.. there is a small group in my neighborhood who has been trying to get curbside recycling.... when they first proposed it, it would have cost each house $7 per month.. got voted down... but they brought it up the next year... voted down... and again... stopped for I think two, maybe three years... brought it back up again this year without much knowledge and slipped it through... will cost us $3 per month...

Now, I have no problem with recycling... but it should pay for itself... OR if you want it pay for it yourself, but don't make ME pay for YOUR recycling...

Now, expand that example to many other items out there... that is what I have a problem with 'liberals'...

I think government is there for streets, schools, defense, laws etc... but we spend billions on farm subsidies, on welfare for people who don't need it.. on welfare for people who DO, but never get off... for private sector businesses that should pay their own way (how many stadiums do you have in YOUR city... well, we have a LOT and some are empty)...

EVEN THEN.. with all this, I would be happy with this 'waste' if the government taxed us 'reasonably' (that is 25% for all government in studies) and only could spend what they brought in....

Wishful thinking....
Agree with all above, except the "happy with waste.............25% for all
gov. studies..............." part.

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 05:50 AM   #110
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
Charles, we are so far apart that I don't think we can even have a discussion.
I have examined history. Life was short, nasty and brutish. I don't long for the past. We are better than that.




Hi Martha. Even though this is directed at Charles (it appears that he and
I are pretty close to lockstep politically), I am taking some poetic license...........
Re. "We are better than that." Thousands of years of history
scream otherwise. Turn on the TV. Read. Look around and tell me what you see. "Mankind" is the ultimate oxymoron.

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 06:02 AM   #111
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Hahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaah!!!!!

JG, you've never had any clue what reality is, so I don't exactly imagine that you are much of a judge of how close anyone is to it.
Maybe, but you appear to have "crossed over" IMHO.

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 06:04 AM   #112
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
I have no doubt that Brewer is perfectly in touch with reality.
Based on what?

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 07:13 AM   #113
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 174
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt

Re. "We are better than that." Thousands of years of history
scream otherwise. Turn on the TV. Read. Look around and tell me what you see. "Mankind" is the ultimate oxymoron.

JG
Maybe "liberals" like Martha see life in better terms than "conservatives" like JG do, because liberals have better lives themselves. The selfishness of conservatives tends to bring them down . . .
__________________
jeff2006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 07:23 AM   #114
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha

Let's see, a liberal believes in individual freedom, tolerance and generosity. This is what I believe.
Hmmm interesting definition. Here is how I have seen it played out in reality.

Individual Freedom: Liberals believe in individual freedom. This applies as long as you are talking about oped displays of sexuality, gay marriage, and smoking pot. They however aren't so interested in personal freedom when it comes to taking away my guns, stopping prayer in school, or heaven forbid smoking tobacco!

Tolerance: They can't seem to get this one straight either. Tolerance of homosexuals, illegal immigrants, animal rights wackos and others like them, why they're just fine and can do whatever they want. White christian males, sorry, you're obviously just going to oppress people! I strangly have found a lot of liberals to be just like Brewer. They're happy as long as they are in their own little world. As soon as you questions just one of their ideas they totally jump off the deep end. I've found conservatives take themselves much less seriously.

Generosity: Sure, it doesn't take a lot to be generous with somebody elses money.

__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 08:03 AM   #115
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
Let's see, a liberal believes in individual freedom, tolerance and generosity. This is what I believe.
This might be what the liberals believe. I can't argue one way or the other as I am not a liberal by any measure. What I can state is that groups traditionally associated with liberal causes don't seem to support these ideas. Look at all of the large vehicles (SUV. trucks) being vandalized simply because they use "too much" gas. I might have personal freedom, unless it is used to preach personal responsibility or God. Look a recent thread where I was lambasted for having a personal responsibility position. I see first hand how the government generosity has led to the success of many people. My biggest complaint with the welfare system is the government gives away this money and expects nothing in return. I feel if people are receiving welfare then they should be forced to try to better themselves in order to get off public assistance and become more successful. That means random drug testing and education assistance. My wife and I are gainfully employed and we both are subject to random drug testing. Why can't the government tell someone who is able to work but is receiving government money they have to go pee in a cup? If you don't want to pee don't receive government aid. If your using but need to go on government assistance, then you will be allowed to receive that assistance, but you must go to drug counseling and submit to more frequent random drug testing. My problem isn't necessarily with welfare it's the problems coming from the free money without strings. If the person doesn't have a high school diploma then they go to night school. If they do then they go to college. If the person is on welfare then they will qualify for many needs based grants.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 08:13 AM   #116
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 699
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Hmmm interesting definition. Here is how I have seen it played out in reality.
As a self-avowed liberal (of hippie upbringing) I'll give you my feedback.

Quote:
Individual Freedom: Liberals believe in individual freedom. This applies as long as you are talking about oped displays of sexuality, gay marriage, and smoking pot.
Sure.

Quote:
They however aren't so interested in personal freedom when it comes to taking away my guns, stopping prayer in school, or heaven forbid smoking tobacco!
Wrong. Own all the guns you like -- they're guaranteed by the constitution Pray in school all you like -- but don't force me or my kids to do so. Smoke all the tobacco you like -- I quit a few years ago, but can still enjoy a second-hand whiff.

Quote:
Tolerance: They can't seem to get this one straight either. Tolerance of homosexuals, illegal immigrants, animal rights wackos and others like them, why they're just fine and can do whatever they want. White christian males, sorry, you're obviously just going to oppress people!
Wrong again. Followers of the Judeo-Christo-Islamic tradition have the same right to practice their beliefs as anyone else.

Quote:
Generosity: Sure, it doesn't take a lot to be generous with somebody elses money.
You've misunderstood -- that is not the meaning of generosity.


__________________
bpp is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 08:18 AM   #117
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnehaha
Posts: 2,375
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

I have a public service announcement.....Texas we recycle here I haven't taken an official poll of the surrounding area, but I think just about everybody does it and not everybody is a socialist scandivanian - I never hear anyone complain. They put a nominal charge on the property tax bill....it reduces how much you put in the garbage can so in turn I reduced the size of the can and thus pay about half of what I would otherwise, so its a good thing in a couple ways...
__________________
MinnesotaEats - www.goodfoodmsp.com
Danny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 08:18 AM   #118
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9
Hmmm interesting definition. Here is how I have seen it played out in reality.

Individual Freedom: Liberals believe in individual freedom. This applies as long as you are talking about oped displays of sexuality, gay marriage, and smoking pot. They however aren't so interested in personal freedom when it comes to taking away my guns, stopping prayer in school, or heaven forbid smoking tobacco!
I will post one last post on this thread. I stayed away from talking politics for the most part and I should have known better to jump into this thread, but here I go again.

Saluki, I am sure that liberals disagree amongst themselves on some of these social issues, as conservatives disagree amongst themselves. So my opinion can't speak for all liberals. I grew up in a town where despite the law, we started the school day with the pledge of allegiance and with a clearly Christian prayer. Imagine being the only person who was of a different faith in that room. Imagine getting harrassed repeatedly to get saved or burn in hell. I lived with that and as a result I know that prayer in the school is intolerant. If you are a student and you want to pray, go ahead and do it between classes or silently to yourself. As a result of my early experiences with fundamentalist Christians, I had a hard time for years thinking that they were anything but cruel.

As far as guns, I got my first rifle when I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. My father taught me safe handling of firearms and there were firearm safety classes at school. You were allowed time off from school to hunt. For meat eaters, I believe the experience of hunting is valuable. We still have guns in the house. I bought my husband a glock once for his birthday. There is no way, with all the guns out there, that firearms are going to be banned. But it is a big safety issue. Too many accidents and suicides are occuring with guns. We need to think about the public health issues involved and work on those. Also, I have no problem with waiting periods to buy guns--it might stop a hot head or two from buying a gun and shooting his wife.

What else did you mention? Oh, tobacco. I see this as a public health issue. I don't want to make smoking illegal, but the science is that which shows it harms me and others so I don't want it in a public place. Seems reasonable to me. Because it is a public health issue, I support programs to help smokers quit.

I think instead of saying that conservatives are bad, libertarians are bad, socialists are bad, or liberals are bad, is that we would get a whole lot further by talking about particular proposals or problems and try to weigh dispassionately the upside and the downside of regulation. The problem of identification with a particular group is that it gets harder and harder to do that, the facts become colored by your groups strongly held opinions. This is a serious problem in government and is not limited to any one party.

__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 08:20 AM   #119
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
brewer, you are a crude fool, and I won't engage an unarmed man.
Charles, shove it where the suin don't shine.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......
Old 11-12-2006, 08:31 AM   #120
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Re: When I Look Upon Pelosi & Reid I Get......

Brewer, cool it.
__________________

__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:36 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.