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View Poll Results: Do you want to live forever?
Yes! 25 34.72%
No! 31 43.06%
Maybe. What's the SWR for that? 16 22.22%
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-23-2006, 01:11 PM   #21
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

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Originally Posted by TromboneAl
Yes, but if there were an evolutionary advantage to living forever (there isn't), solutions to those problems would have adaptive value, and the problems would go away.
Evolution can only act on the reproducing members of a population.* *Once an organism lives past the age of reproduction, evolution has nothing more it can do, so it's up to us.*

Quote:
I read a great science fiction book about people who lived forever.* They'd live in a town until people started to notice that they weren't aging, then move on.* Very well done.
Hmm, another potential book: SENS-world.* *Tyrants try to avoid being assassinated.* *Companies try to protect their best employees from accidents.* *The procreators battle the rejuvinators for scarce resources.* * And Dory launches a new board for people thinking about retiring before the age of 500.*
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-23-2006, 01:42 PM   #22
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

My dad lived to 95. Until his first stroke at age 90 he had a great life. I answered yes but only if I can avoid the detrimental affects of aging and retain some friends.

I would like to go skiing with my great grandchildren.
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-23-2006, 01:51 PM   #23
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-23-2006, 04:18 PM   #24
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

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Originally Posted by Cute & Fuzzy Apocalypse
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Extremely subtle, and on so many levels!
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-23-2006, 07:31 PM   #25
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

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Evolution can only act on the reproducing members of a population. Once an organism lives past the age of reproduction, evolution has nothing more it can do, so it's up to us.
I know what you're saying, but if there were some dramatic advantage to the survivability of the young due to the presence of immortals, the population with the immortals would have an advantage.

But my point was that organisms age and die only because there's no adaptive value in living forever. There's actually a big advantage to having the older members die off after their usefulness is over. But if there could be an adaptive value to immortality, the problems you mentioned would probably be solved.

IOW, we're used to living things dying, but there's no theoretical reason that they must. No theoretical reason why body repair couldn't be better.

If there could be evolutionary pressure to live forever, the problems are minor.

With sprouting etc, redwood trees are pretty much immortal.
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-23-2006, 07:36 PM   #26
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

Actually people live longer than your explanation would imply.

For species optimazation people would die off after their offspring are grown. That's the salmon model.

But we know that people live much longer than that, way past their reproductive and rearing years. So in a way, people have evolved so that their lifespan is extended beyond just what is needed to keep the species going.
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-23-2006, 08:13 PM   #27
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
With sprouting etc, redwood trees are pretty much immortal.
True, but probably not due to any evolutionary advantage.* *In general, there seems to be a relationship between metabolic rate and lifespan.* **Slow* turtles can live to be 200+ years old.* *And men used to have a maximum lifespan of around 35 years before childhood diseases were wiped out via the miracles of farming and modern medicine.

Death by aging doesn't seem to be a result of evolutionary design, just a side effect of garbage accumulation.* * Could we evolve mechanisms for better garbage collection?* *Maybe if we started selective breeding of all the people who make it to 120 years old in good shape, but the SENS approach is probably faster.

Personally, I'd be more interested in a good suspend/resume function.* *Wake me up when the great great grandkids want to go skiing, and then shut me down again so I don't consume any of their resources.
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-24-2006, 10:12 AM   #28
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
Sorry, it probably doesn't work for humans.
Why do you say that? Weren't the studies going well, markers pointing to slow aging, so long as you kept the nutrition up and avoided osteoporosis?
How about the primate studies?

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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-24-2006, 10:16 AM   #29
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

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Originally Posted by wab
Personally, I'd be more interested in a good suspend/resume function.* *
That brings a pretty macabre meaning to the phrase "blue screen of death"!

Isn't that one of the features in Vista's beta? Or maybe they'll add it to SP1...
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-24-2006, 11:48 AM   #30
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyday
Why do you say that?* Weren't the studies going well, markers pointing to slow aging, so long as you kept the nutrition up and avoided osteoporosis?
How about the primate studies?
The arguments I've heard against CR are:

* The J-shaped mortality curve that shows that risk of mortality goes up for both fat and skinny folks (the latest study shows the sweet spot for non-smoking men is at a BMI between 23-25).

And de Grey makes several arguments against CR here:

overview of SENS

* Human's are already long-lived compared to rats et al, so the approach may not work for us (we have better antioxidant enzymes than other lab test subjects).

* CR works on lab mice, but it doesn't appear to work on mice in the wild.

* CR on lab rats only works if you start them on the diet at a young age.* *For middle age rats (like us), it had no life extending effects at all.
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-24-2006, 12:33 PM   #31
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

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Personally, I'd be more interested in a good suspend/resume function. Wake me up when the great great grandkids want to go skiing, and then shut me down again so I don't consume any of their resources.
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-24-2006, 03:26 PM   #32
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

Wab,

While I'm not well-read enough on the subject to give a good defense of CRON, I did want to make a few comments in gentle protest:

> * The J-shaped mortality curve that...

But,
-perhaps life extension doesn't kick in until you're at something of an extreme, AND at good nutrition, which most thin people aren't. Lab rats with CR but no ON did poorly.
-I've read that smoking confuses many BMI studies, because it causes people to be thinner, but less healthy, and die sooner
-if someone has an illness, excess weight might help them survive the illness. although maybe that should be counted!


> * Human's are already long-lived compared to rats et al, so the approach may not work for us (we have better antioxidant enzymes than other lab test subjects).

-Wolford claimed it has worked for all species tested. Tests were incomplete for longer lived species, but he wrote that it was looking good, so far.
-antioxidants just one theory of why CRON works


> * CR works on lab mice, but it doesn't appear to work on mice in the wild.

Not sure how in the wild, mice could get both CR and ON.
(For that matter, could be the same problem with people. Free will could destroy the ON as some people will cheat and eat too much ice cream and not enough vegetables, and suffer from malnutrition.)


> * CR on lab rats only works if you start them on the diet at a young age. For middle age rats (like us), it had no life extending effects at all.

Wolford specifically said the oppositte of this--that if started late, you get the benefit, but only the proportion appropriate for when you started.

I don't claim that everything the man said was true though... Nor do I think that life extension through CRON is realistic for many people... if anyone.
But I do like the idea, and wish there were more research on it.
Actually, I wish there were much more research on health and happiness, and much fewer shopping malls and fast food places, but that's another thread.
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-24-2006, 03:40 PM   #33
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyday
I don't claim that everything the man said was true though... Nor do I think that life extension through CRON is realistic for many people... if anyone.
But I do like the idea, and wish there were more research on it.
The idea makes some sense, but it's simply not well established for humans, and it's a difficult path to stay on.* *My BIL (a chemistry prof) did it for a while, but stopped when his doc convinced him he was doing more harm than good.

And then there's this guy:



CRON/CRAN types don't even *look* healthy....
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-24-2006, 03:51 PM   #34
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
it's simply not well established for humans, and it's a difficult path to stay on
Agree with both, especially the latter.

I suspect that if humans were in a lab like rats, CRON would work, but in real life, I don't know.


Do you know why your BIL wasn't doing well on it? Understand if rather not say, even if you do know.
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-24-2006, 04:05 PM   #35
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyday
Do you know why your BIL wasn't doing well on it? Understand if rather not say, even if you do know.
No, he won't really talk about it.* But he is a runner as well, and I suspect the combination of calorie restriction and exercise would put you at risk of depleting important fats and proteins unless you're *very* careful about getting enough macronutrients.

The J-shaped mortality curve that shows an optimum BMI of 23-25 was for non-smokers with no chronic disease.* * That suggests to me that you need some fat reserves, but not so much fat that your organs are marbled with the stuff.
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 08-24-2006, 05:59 PM   #36
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

> optimum BMI of 23-25 was for non-smokers with no chronic disease.


I figure there were two times in my life that my BMI stayed far below 23 for more than 6 months.

The first time, I just didn't eat as much or as often, and got thin. I ate somewhat healthy, but didn't put a lot of effort into nutrition. People worried I was too thin, but I felt good.
In hindsight, I wasn't being as healthy as I could have or should have been.

The second time, I ate much more, but severely restricted high calorie low nutrition foods, and ate lots of vegetables and fruits, and some whole grains. Was much more careful to get enough protein each day. May have been a little low on fat intake, but not too bad.
People worried I was too thin, but I felt good.
I suspect that my diet and body was quite healthy. If memory serves me right, the diet fell apart when I started living with someone who (justifiably) wanted more food in the house!
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 09-12-2006, 11:21 AM   #37
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

Anyone thinking about where are all these people are going to live?

After buying this house, I swore I'd never move again. At that time the town's population was just over 1500. A decade later, it's 6,000 and counting.

At 2500 residents, the town ruled that all new housing had to be on a 2 acres minimum. Today, I'm watching 2-story townhomes go up all too close to me on 1/4 acre lots. Crowded is an understatement.




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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 09-12-2006, 11:40 AM   #38
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

I picked no. I can see living forever if you can stop aging while in your prime , sort of like the Highlander but with out the need to chop off heads of course. I figure I'd want to say about 35. (long past that now).
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 09-12-2006, 11:43 AM   #39
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

I picked yes, but that's only half the story.

I also want to keep on growing as I age, with no limit. Just like fish! Then people will say of me, "He's 20 feet tall and weighs 800 lbs. He's got to be at least 120 years old! And a mouth full of razor sharp teeth - I bet he eats whole chickens in one bite."
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?
Old 09-13-2006, 03:58 PM   #40
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Re: Poll: Do you want to live forever?

I didn't answer. Ask me again in 60 years.
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