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Old 02-06-2019, 12:37 PM   #81
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Those things sound like a good idea, but are flaky. Easier and a lot more dependable solution is to buy another SSD. A good setup is to do something like the following:

SSD 1: Two partitions (C & D): (C)WINDOWS & (D)Factory Recovery
SSD 2: Two partitions (F & G): (F)BACKUP (ICO OF WINDOWS & D) & (G)MEDIA

Skipped E drive because it is typically optical.

As an example my C drive has 267GB on it now. To create an image on the F drive takes less than 10 minutes. If the C drive crashes, unpacking the image from F to C takes less than 15 minutes. Make an image weekly, and the drive life will be in the thousands of years from the read/write standpoint. There is always a chance of a mechanical failure of course, but there isn't a lot of 'mechanics' to a SSD. The best way to keep any component in PC from failing is to have an UPS system to keep voltage correct, and prevent surges. Every PC should have an UPS, without fail.
Good setup. However, my setup is different:

500GB SSD1 Two partitions 250 GB ea : C: Windows 7 D: ACTIVE DATA
4TB HD1 five partitions: F: ARCHIVED DATA, G: Music H: Photos
I: Videos J: Image files of Windows 7

500GB SSD2: Exact Clone of SSD1
4TB HD2: Exact clone of HD1

Since ACTIVE DATA changes often, I backup very important files in ACTIVE DATA to a thumb drive. After the active files are no longer in use on my SSD, I transfer the files to the slower HD.

SSD1 and HD1 are on the PC and in use and therefore hardware failure is more likely on SSD1 and HD1 than SSD2 and HD2. When there is a hardware failure, a simple swap fixes the problem.

I had a case when my Acronis image file failed to restore. My Acronis 2012 is 7 years old, Acronis tech support implied that I should update Acronis by paying $29.99 for an updated Acronis program which I decline. Instead, I decided to do a clean install of windows 7 which is a long process. I decided to be "less dependent" on image files to restore my system. I still have image files but image files are not my sole method of restoration.

I was also inspired by Marie Konda to "declutter" my operating system. After the clean install and installing only the important programs that I needed, I noticed how much faster my 8 year old PC was. I then decided to clone the operating system on a second SSD so that my backup operating system is a "Marie Konda" or decluttered operating system.

Note that my decluttered operatng system is not installed on my PC. I am very careful what new programs that I add... but I have assurances that SSD2 is there when I needed it. There were many times I installed a program and the new program screwed up my PC and when I un-install the program, the PC was still not the same.

The Hot Swap hardware may have made the exterior USB hard drives obsolete. This is because data transfer is slow using USB cable compared to data transfer using the internal SATA III cable on the motherboard that is directly connected to the hot swap hardware. External USB hard drives involved plugging in the power cable and the USB cables but the Hot Swap hardware do away with any exterior cables! I still get a thrill plugging in my SSD and HD like a thumb drive. To store my SSD and HD, I purchased protective hard cases and stored them in my fire resistant and flood resistant home safe.
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:06 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
A couple of comments from a former SSD firmware engineer:
...Further, the SSD keeps track of how many times it writes to each block and writes in such a way as to use them up equally. That being said, unless you're a ridiculous power user, if you do the math you'll find that you'll probably wear out your SSD after decades of average use.
What exactly is the failure mode - what makes it unable to store the electrical signal?
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:31 PM   #83
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What exactly is the failure mode - what makes it unable to store the electrical signal?
Well, I'm a firmware engineer, not a hardware engineer, but my understanding is that the electrical charge (which is really just a very small number - on the order of dozens - of electrons) is stored in the NAND cell. They "tunnel" or move in and out depending on the electrical charges on the "wires" leading to that cell which vary depending on whether it is a program, erase, or read operation.

As the electrons move in and out of the cell, it physically degrades the metal oxide layer such that it cannot reliably keep the electrons in the cell. There are error correction, adaptive read, refresh, and reallocation methods which help combat this problem, but fundamentally nothing that can really fully stop the degradation...mostly the SSD tries to degrade in a way that doesn't lose data.

Why the electrons wear out the oxide layer, I never really asked or knew.

Here's a decent summary, which although it doesn't refer to my former employer, seems to match a lot of what we did as well:

http://www.storage-switzerland.com/A...st_Longer.html
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:36 PM   #84
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Old 02-06-2019, 08:30 PM   #85
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I actually read most of this thread without having a clue, but it was fun. I just want to be part of the "tech" group.

My first computer was an Adam Coleco $600, (for my kids) back on Christmas 1984. Self taught DOS for all of us.... and from then to today, have only had old or rebuilds. Currently 3 in use in different rooms as needed, and one more at camp. When the kids update in their business, I get the old ones for $50-$100. Also some old Vista laptops running Slimjet. Three tablets that I can't use anymore 'cuz the fingers don't work right.

Currently all synced, and any important files on a 2T drive. When a machine breaks down, I take out and smash the hard drive.

Problems are not breakdowns of machines, but breakdowns of memory. With about 50,000 jpgs (yeah, I was official photographer for parties in our over 55 community for 23 years) Most important program is "Everything". The only way I can find anything anymore.

Hey! can I join the group?
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Old 02-08-2019, 08:53 AM   #86
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Really sorry to hear of your issue. FWIW I've had SSDs in all my computers since they became readily available about 7 or 8 years ago. Never had an issue, but it is true that SSDs have a limited number of read/write cycles. Then again, I do regular backups too... to a physical drive... never did trust the cloud, and I know people who have lost tons of their photos in the cloud.
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Old 02-08-2019, 09:03 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarguy View Post
Really sorry to hear of your issue. FWIW I've had SSDs in all my computers since they became readily available about 7 or 8 years ago. Never had an issue, but it is true that SSDs have a limited number of read/write cycles. Then again, I do regular backups too... to a physical drive... never did trust the cloud, and I know people who have lost tons of their photos in the cloud.

Good to read youíve had no problems. My thoughts about reliability/lifespan have improved after reading several of the comments in this thread.

Iím guessing/hoping that Iíll have replaced the computer before the internal SSD dies, but in any case multiple backups are ongoing and up-to-date.

Any specifics about how/why/where cloud data was lost? Iím trying to research options for using a cloud service as the off-site piece of a backup strategy.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:09 AM   #88
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I like to keep things simple. Depending on how paranoid you are, one of two approaches keeps it simple and works well with mobile devices.

One drive, 1TB or 2TB, SATA SSD. These are inexpensive now. For newer machines, this will be SATA M.2 form factor; older ones, 2.5" laptop style drive.

Option 1a: Backup to "the cloud" automatically by having your Document, Picture etc folders linked to that. In Windows, OneDrive does that seamlessly, and you get 1TB of storage with an O365 home subscription.

Option 1b: Backup to an external drive with Veeam for Windows or equivalent Mac option. WD Elements is $150 for 8TB, plenty and then some. Backup automatically kicks off when the drive is connected to USB. (Variation on this approach is a home NAS connected to Ethernet, useful if streaming the DVD collection to the TV is also desired)

Option 2: Do both, belt and suspenders, for a "3-2-1" approach: Three copies of the data, in two additional locations, one of which is offsite. You really have to love your data to do that, and, it's still inexpensive and easy.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:30 AM   #89
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Any specifics about how/why/where cloud data was lost? Iím trying to research options for using a cloud service as the off-site piece of a backup strategy.
Sorry, don't remember. AFAIK I think Google Photos or Drive is pretty decent, but you may want to research that.
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Primary SSD failed on my computer at 4 years
Old 02-08-2019, 11:07 AM   #90
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Primary SSD failed on my computer at 4 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarguy View Post
Sorry, don't remember. AFAIK I think Google Photos or Drive is pretty decent, but you may want to research that.


Thanks, nothing to be sorry about as it sounds like it hit friends, not you.

Iím already using Google Photos and Drive although not necessarily in a ďstructuredĒ way. Photos autobackups my mobile photos which is convenient and free. Drive storage is free for Google Apps (Sheets, Docs, etc), so also convenient.

I have a decent amount of Drive space free and will probably first see what I might do there to backup other data.

No storage subscription fees = me likey!
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:09 AM   #91
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My experience - 18 SSD's acquired over the course of nine years, no failures or latency issues. All but one are removable and are backed up to a conventional mechanical drive for safety and long-term storage.

I always turn the computer off after finishing a session as re-booting is so fast. Presumably this will lead to more read/write cycles but no problems so far. Most of the drives are on the smaller/lower cost price point - i.e., cheap to replace.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:12 PM   #92
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I always turn the computer off after finishing a session as re-booting is so fast. Presumably this will lead to more read/write cycles but no problems so far. Most of the drives are on the smaller/lower cost price point - i.e., cheap to replace.
It depends on which one you use, but with a combination of OS hibernation and DEVSLP, you can get a computer to boot in under a second. The size of the writes are probably on the order of megabytes, so I don't personally worry about the amount of wear on the drive. Doing this also saves some power.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:10 PM   #93
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Rebooting time can depend on (1) BIOS (2) Windows (3) your hardware (motherboard/RAM/SSD) and programs launching during windows startup.

Latest motherboards with the latest BIOS (set to fast bootup) and the latest hardware boots extremely fast compared to just a few years ago.

Windows 10 also tend to boot fairly fast if you minimize launching certain programs during start up. I discovered some Anti-virus programs and other monitoring programs launching during windows startup can slow things down.

We have reached a point that turning off your PC and turning it back on again is no longer an inconvenience...unless you have an antique PC.
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windows 7 boot up time
Old 02-08-2019, 03:44 PM   #94
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windows 7 boot up time

I was curious how fast my 8 yrs desktop PC bootup time was...so I timed it to be 25 seconds from the "beep" sound in BIOS to the Windows 7 cursor no longer turning.

My 8 yrs old PC system: Asus Sabertooth X58 MB; i7 950 CPU rated 5613 pathmark; 12GB 1600 MHz RAM; Crucial 500GB SSD and 4TB Toshiba HD.
Windows 7 with all startup programs disabled in msconfig windows screen.

My daughter's PC is 3 years old with similar but different components can do it in 15 seconds. I believe the latest PC and notebooks at Bestbuys can boot in about 10 seconds.

If anyone out there has a PC that can do it in under 10 seconds, let me know what is your configuration is. This is because I will be shopping for a new desktop PC in a few years.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:57 PM   #95
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I was curious how fast my 8 yrs desktop PC bootup time was...so I timed it to be 25 seconds from the "beep" sound in BIOS to the Windows 7 cursor no longer turning.

My 8 yrs old PC system: Asus Sabertooth X58 MB; i7 950 CPU rated 5613 pathmark; 12GB 1600 MHz RAM; Crucial 500GB SSD and 4TB Toshiba HD.
Windows 7 with all startup programs disabled in msconfig windows screen.

My daughter's PC is 3 years old with similar but different components can do it in 15 seconds. I believe the latest PC and notebooks at Bestbuys can boot in about 10 seconds.

If anyone out there has a PC that can do it in under 10 seconds, let me know what is your configuration is. This is because I will be shopping for a new desktop PC in a few years.
Mine just did a cold boot to the Windows 8 login screen in about 7 seconds.

Dell Inspiron 15 model 7547
Intel Core i5-4210U
6GB RAM
Windows 8.1
1TB Crucial M550 SSD

It probably takes me another two seconds to type my password and then I'm at the Windows desktop in about 9 seconds.

Coming out of sleep takes about 1.5 seconds.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:52 PM   #96
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I have seen 120gb SSDs go for $18 now. Amazing price drops.
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Old 02-09-2019, 12:38 PM   #97
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People who has the newer NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD and compatible motherboards have all reported boot times between 2 and 8 seconds! Read speeds are 3000+ MB/sec compared to 500 MB/sec for SSD. Time for me to upgrade.
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:00 PM   #98
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People who has the newer NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD and compatible motherboards have all reported boot times between 2 and 8 seconds! Read speeds are 3000+ MB/sec compared to 500 MB/sec for SSD. Time for me to upgrade.
I thought about that, and then decided against it and went with a SATA M.2, 2TB, instead.

The reason is that booting in 10 seconds or 30 seconds makes no practical difference to me, and I don't do anything disk intensive once the system is up. Web, mail, some games. Games don't pull more than roughly 170 MB/sec, which is why there is no performance difference to SATA SSD.

4k video processing, I think I can see the value of NVMe. Nothing else "in the home" comes to mind where it'd actually make a difference.

That said, if you have the money and it gives you a thrill, go right for it.
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Old 02-09-2019, 05:08 PM   #99
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Years ago computers would get massively better every few years. But now they are better, but not massively so. The difference is speed of saving a few seconds doesn't seem worth the expense.
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Old 02-09-2019, 11:11 PM   #100
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I'm trying to convince myself that this is massively better: https://www.sfflab.com/products/dan_...t=503016718345

Only because a desktop PC that actually fits onto a desktop, in a 7.25L case, is pretty neat. That's an expensive "neat" though. A little over $1,000 to build in that case, and that's with keeping existing graphics card and SSD.
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