Propane tank for home?

[nphx]

I am building and there is only electric - no gas lines. Does anyone have a propane tank (buried) to feed their home - and is it worth it over electricity?

I would use it for tankless water heater feeds and as an option for heating (im in arizona).

[Lakewood90712]

Propane is usually cheaper than elec. for water and clothers dryer heat, and about even with a heat pump for house heat. AZ has a pretty low elec. rate IIRC.

A new generation of hy-brid heatpump/conventional water heaters are now available. They are incorporated into the tank. GE and others make them.

With propane , it is important to pre-purchase in the summer, for delivery the next winter. Spot price in the winter can be 200-300 % higher .

One more thing to check. Find out if your homeowners insurance will be lower if the home has no fuel gas.

Hope this helps.

[REWahoo]

Most homes in our rural subdivision are all electric but one of our neighbors has propane. His combined annual energy bill is roughly 50% more than ours even though his house is only 15% larger. He's told me on more than one occasion he wishes he hadn't opted for propane heat.

[Tesaje]

I have a propane tank and it works well. I really like it for the cook top. It has gotten very expensive in the last few years. But then so has electric so I don't know whether it would be any better. I've had it for 18 years. My water heater died a few years ago and I replaced it with a good electric one because I couldn't see how the expensive propane made any sense anymore. When I put it in 18 years ago, the cost was significantly better.

[Brat]

We had a large propane tank on Bainbridge Island which fueled the furnace, hot water, fireplace, BBQ and one of the cooktops. We owned the tank which was buried (actually in the front yard). The cost of propane was much lower than other users because we owned the tank and could store quantities above the price break point.

If natural gas were available that would have been a better buy. We didn't feel that propane was more expensive than the alternatives plus when the power went out the fireplace could heat the house and we could use the cook top. Propane can also be used for a generator if needed.

We used Ferrell Gas which gave great service and competitive prices.

[braumeister]

Propane in our last house -- a 500 gallon tank (not buried) that we owned. Propane had been cheap, but by the time we moved out in 2004, the price had risen dramatically.

Current house is all electric (heat pump), and our total utility bill is significantly lower for the same size house.

Biggest problem we had with the propane is that the suppliers were not terribly reliable about keeping us supplied. There were several times when I had to do lots of frantic calling when we got low, and once we were down to less than 10% of the tank (in January). Switched suppliers twice during the eight years we owned that house, and each was good for the first year, then got sloppy in their service.

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Make sure your supplier is reliable and better yet, that they have some competition. You are really dependent on them and their prices.

We have propane even though we are in an urban location. DW likes a flame for cooking and we tapped the grill and tankless water heater to it. It has lowered our overall electric bill slightly anda we have not had a problem in 7 years.

[TromboneAl]

We have a 300 gallon above ground tank. Prices vary dramatically. We used to use it a lot for heating, but now use firewood almost exclusively.

It works quite well for us.

A bigger tank will let you time your purchases to avoid buying in winter. If you get stuck, you can buy just a little to tide you over until summer. Avoid a system in which they determine when you need gas. Also, if you can make it all winter without refilling (easy if you don't use it for heating), you do not need any kind of "price guarantee" or "prebuy" option.

I used to track levels and prices quite closely to get the hang of things:

[frank]

first of all if you are going to use propane, make sure you own the tank. If you lease or rent the tank from a supplier they will charge you whatever the market will bear, but if you own the tank you can get bids from other suppliers. propane suppliers will not fill another suppliers tank. I had propane for years and it was comparable in price to elec. but now I have natural gas which is cheaper than either.

trombone al: I considered burning wood( I have in the past) but the price for a semi load of wood in log form was at 800. How would that work out for price if considered against propane or elec. I guess what I was asking if you pay 800. for approx 18-20 ton of wood that will last all winter. how much do you save over propane or elec. is it worth the extra time and work invested, plus equipment to process the wood?

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I prefer living in a butane tank, myself.

Oh, that wasn't the question?

We have natural gas. The best choice, if you have one.

As one who works in the hydrocarbon industry, I figure that propane (and oil and gasoline) will get progressively more expensive. In spite of the inefficiency, I think that the price of electricity, which is mostly generated by burning coal, will not rise as fast. The continent is going to be awash in natural gas any time now. As a consumer, I like natural gas for a lot of reasons.

nphx, you could probably profit from a high quality heat pump. And good insulation. You may be able to find one these days that will reject heat to your hot water system. Double payout! (Nords! Is this available today?)

For cooking, I love gas of any kind. In your situation, I would look at a propane stove top.

[TromboneAl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank trombone al: I considered burning wood( I have in the past) but the price for a semi load of wood in log form was at 800. How would that work out for price if considered against propane or elec. I guess what I was asking if you pay 800. for approx 18-20 ton of wood that will last all winter. how much do you save over propane or elec. is it worth the extra time and work invested, plus equipment to process the wood?

I haven't calculated that for a while, because all of the wood I've gotten for the last five years or so has been free. I've gotten it from downed trees during storms, and craigslist free ads. Caltrans says it's OK to take the wood along the side of the road that they've cut up (and I have a recording of them telling me this).

So for me, it's definitely worth it. I spent a few hundred on a chainsaw. I do all the splitting with a maul, and consider it as exercise. It's a lot of work stacking and moving and collecting, and sometimes I get tired of it. I went through 6-7 cords last year.

I have about 3 cords already for next year (not dry yet), but I'll run out of wood for this year in a few weeks! Not sure what I'll do.

But I'd guess that it would be cheaper than propane heating even if I had to purchase the wood. Note that we don't heat at night -- it was 60 degrees in the LR this morning (and 50 degrees in the bedroom (with windows open). With the wood stove, I'm primarily heating the living room, and not the whole house. Also, the room feels warming when there's a glow fire in view.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl Also, the room feels warming when there's a glow fire in view.

Especially when it's in the wood stove...

[East Texas]

We use propane for our 16KW residential generator, tankless water heater, stove, and a space heater out in the workshop.

If you go with the 1,000 gallon tank, ask your dealer if they will only deliver if you're at or below the 20% level. If they go with the strict 20%, and you want to bring your tank up to the 70% level - do the math. Or they may just drop off 200 gallons and that's fine. It depends on how much money you want to shell out at one time and how many appliances are dependent on it.

Let me get back to our residential generator for a minute. Even if we had natural gas out here, we'd still choose propane. In case of disasters, gasoline and diesel can be confiscated by law enforcement. Natural gas and electrical distribution lines can be disrupted in a myriad of ways.

Propane was our personal choice. Power outages in this area are common. When natural disasters such as Hurricanes Rita and Ike came through, electricity was out for days in many locations. About 20 seconds after our electricity goes out the generator comes on. While everyone else was scrambling with portable generators and trying to get gas / diesel to power them, we made one call to our propane company (many of their trucks also run on propane) and got a delivery. It helps that our propane dealer has a disaster preparedness plan so propane can be delivered without any service interruptions.

If you choose to go with propane and you're buying the tank from the propane company, ask for a discount on the first fuel delivery. We got almost 20% knocked off the first bill.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braumeister Propane in our last house -- a 500 gallon tank (not buried) that we owned. Propane had been cheap, but by the time we moved out in 2004, the price had risen dramatically.

I think the problem here is that propane tends to track NG liquids, which track crude oil, rather than natural gas. NG is a colossal energy bargain now, and has been for a couple years.

Ha

[nphx]

Thank you everyone for your insight. A buried, owned, 500 gal tank is quoted at $5900 stubbed to the house.

I will probably pass on the gas.

Next challenge is to consider how tankless water heaters would play with a solar water heater setup expecting a tank. I suppose a standard water heater on low or off.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nphx I will probably pass on the gas.

Psst. Beano...

[pb4uski]

We have propane at our second home (whcih we are in process of renovating and will soon become our first home). We have a 100 gal tank. Previously used for just a space heater, hot water and dryer but will now use for space heating (radiant in walkout basement, hot water baseboard on main floor), cooktop, hot water and dryer.

My tank is not buried - tank is behind garage and not noticeable and then a buried line brings the propane to the corner of the house and then it is 3/4" black pipe from there to each fixture.

Happy with it so far. Given our expansion, I think I'll need another 100 gal tank.

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nphx Next challenge is to consider how tankless water heaters would play with a solar water heater setup expecting a tank. I suppose a standard water heater on low or off.

I can't see how this would work. You are asking for your instantaneous use of hot water to coincide with sun on the roof. Even in Arizona, the sun goes down at night.

[Brat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha I think the problem here is that propane tends to track NG liquids, which track crude oil, rather than natural gas. NG is a colossal energy bargain now, and has been for a couple years. Ha

As my son commented yesterday, if the PNW would see the value of an ING port the cost would plummet as they are burning of huge quantities of gas in Valdez daily.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nphx Next challenge is to consider how tankless water heaters would play with a solar water heater setup expecting a tank. I suppose a standard water heater on low or off.

Depending on whether you see freezing at your altitude, your solar water system could get kinda complicated with anti-freeze loops or drainback piping. But if you have a solar water system then you'll have an 80-120-gallon tank that should give you enough hot water for 2-3 sunless days, and you may only need the usual solar-configured water heater with an electric backup.

Of course that also means you'll have an 80-120-gallon thermal mass in your garage or next to your house during the hot summer days. But you could minimize that problem with a heavy water-heater insulation blanket, and we only turn on our solar water heater's electricity one or two days a year.

The trick with a tankless heater would be getting it to cycle on at 90-100 degrees (coming out of your cooled solar water tank) and cycle off at 125 degrees. That's a much narrower thermostatic range than working with 70-degree water. You may also need a 3/4" or even 1" gas supply to the tankless heater so that it can pump out the BTUs fast enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nphx I will probably pass on the gas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo Psst. Beano...

Considering the avatar... "Nyuk nyuk nyuk!"