Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Pros/Cons of different martial arts?
Old 12-10-2008, 12:38 PM   #1
Full time employment: Posting here.
Urchina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central Coast, California
Posts: 923
Pros/Cons of different martial arts?

I'm beginning to think about signing our very active son up for a preschool martial arts class. Around here the Y and several dojos have classes for kids as young as 4, so this will be in 6 months or so. But I'm having a hard time differentiating between the different martial arts in terms of appropriateness for an active and sweet kid. I'm also curious myself -- is there a martial art out there that I'd enjoy participating in? So I figured I'd pick the brains of the folks here, since many of you have mentioned that you practice a martial art.

What are your opinions of the different martial arts (karate, kung-fu, aikido, taekwondo, jiu-jitsu, judo, etc.)? I'm looking for a healthy outlet for my kids (I think that if we try this with our son and it goes well, our daughter will also follow him), and possibly a good outlet for me. So I'm looking for an art that focuses on:

Impulse control
Physical activity (lots of movement would be good -- sitting for a long time would be bad)
Focus on conflict avoidance and resolution (we're not fans of aggressive, fight-oriented activities)
Self-confidence (no lack of that in this house, but we don't want our kids' confidence checked unnecessarily, either)
Meditation or self-calming, self-regulation.
Discipline (least important, our kids get plenty of that at home).

For me, an art that doesn't put a huge amount of stress on the body (I have a chronic knee injury and a chronic lower back injury that require adaptation when exercise or do yoga) would be a bonus. Anything that requires a lot of kicking, twisting, or jumping is not so great for me.

Finally, I realize that a lot of the experience in a martial art depends heavily upon the teachers at the school. My kids and I tend to do best with patient, gentle, consistent and firm instruction (think Mary Poppins) as opposed to aggressive, in-your-face motivation (a drill instructor, say). I'm wondering if different martial arts draw different types.

Thanks in advance for your ideas!
__________________
"You'd be surprised at how much it costs to look this cheap." -- Dolly Parton
Urchina is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-10-2008, 01:15 PM   #2
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
David1961's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,085
I don't have any experience in martial arts, but I did look into karate a few years ago. What turned me off was that the schools wanted you to sign up for a whole year of lessons. So what if I started and decided it was not for me? I understand why schools want the long-term commitments, but for someone unsure if it was for them, it't be nice to have some sort of month-to-month deal.
A plus I found is that the schools will let prospective students watch classes, so I'd recommend you do that. Just in the few I watched, one in particular was a drill-instructor in-your-face instructor and the others were more "nonaggressive". I'd recommend visiting a few with your son and just seeing which one is the best fit for him. It all depends on what you want. Good luck.
David1961 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 01:27 PM   #3
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
I did martial arts until I moved out of the city in my mid thirties. Boston, Hollywood, West LA, and San Francisco. Shotokan Karate, Kung Fu, Joe Lewis style kick-boxing. Wherever there are young guys doing this stuff there are guys itching to see how tough they really are. So fom my POV, a non-agressive MA dojo is a pretty hard thing to find. I took classes in aikido with my wife in LA from a Japanese Master. This was fun, and non-agressive. Also while I was stil in high school I took sport judo from a retired Navy guy which was really fun. The class was full of competitive but non-hostile young guys, the coach was great, the padding was good and with decent training the sport is mostly non-lethal.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 02:01 PM   #4
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 150
I'll give it a try:

1. Karate (Japanese) focus their fighting technique using the hands.
2. Kungfu (Chinese) with many different fighting styles. They use hands in the south and legs in the north.
3. Taekwondo (Korean) mostly leg
4. Judo (Japanese) grappling. Their focus is to use opponent's strenght to their advantage. They focus on throwing techniques.
5. Jiu-Jitsu (Japanese) similar to Judo but they focus more on join locks and choking.

For you son, I recommend Judo. It's a defensive form of martial art.
For you, I recommend Taichi.

Good luck.
huusom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 07:56 PM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 8,764
I have some experience in Wu-shu, Tai Chi, and Aikido. Wu-shu is an ancient Kung-fu style art that doesn't involve fighting. It's stylistic, beautiful, almost a martial dance. I'm not sure if it would hold a child's interest, especially the boy. However, there's a bunch of weapons routines he might get into - sword, spear, bo, chains. It's pretty cool, wish I was young and flexible enough to do it again. I suspect your daughter might like it a lot. Most places that teach wu-shu also teach tai-chi, which would be great for you.
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens)
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 08:39 PM   #6
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,855
Well, you know my bias but I'll offer my opinions too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urchina View Post
I'm beginning to think about signing our very active son up for a preschool martial arts class. Around here the Y and several dojos have classes for kids as young as 4, so this will be in 6 months or so. But I'm having a hard time differentiating between the different martial arts in terms of appropriateness for an active and sweet kid.
At this age the martial art is irrelevant because over the next couple of years he might end up trying them all. Our kid couldn't go for more than six months at an activity before she'd see Big Bird or Barney doing something that she'd want to try. And then six months later we'd move on.

Our taekwondo instructor teaches kids as young as four years old, too, but he has a black-belt instructor for every four kids and the class is never bigger than eight students. Plenty of individual attention. The kids start out as bodies in perpetual motion, unable to even look you in the eye let alone stand still. But after a few months they're able to snap to attention, stand quietly for all the way up to 30 seconds (sometimes), execute a couple of different forms, and feel every bit as martial as Bruce Lee. I've also seen our instructor succeed with kids who are dealing with ADHD, Asperger's, and autism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urchina View Post
What are your opinions of the different martial arts (karate, kung-fu, aikido, taekwondo, jiu-jitsu, judo, etc.)? I'm looking for a healthy outlet for my kids (I think that if we try this with our son and it goes well, our daughter will also follow him), and possibly a good outlet for me. So I'm looking for an art that focuses on:
Impulse control
Physical activity (lots of movement would be good -- sitting for a long time would be bad)
Focus on conflict avoidance and resolution (we're not fans of aggressive, fight-oriented activities)
Self-confidence (no lack of that in this house, but we don't want our kids' confidence checked unnecessarily, either)
Meditation or self-calming, self-regulation.
Discipline (least important, our kids get plenty of that at home).
All martial arts are great with a good instructor, and they're all horrible with a not-so-good instructor.

Most instructors will satisfy all of your above points. Conflict avoidance is mainly telling the kids to walk away from a bad situation and find a grownup. They may be told not to use martial arts outside the dojang. We parents have observed an interesting effect when siblings take the class-- they fight less often. I don't know if it's because they can do real damage with their new skills or if it's because lapsing into martial arts distracts them from the argument, but the conflicts are much more verbal and much less physical.

It helps that when the instructor teaches a proper stance, the kid looks confident instead of like a victim. A good instructor, let alone a good martial arts instructor, will focus on what a kid is doing right (and congratulate/reward that) while ignoring what a kid isn't doing right. After a while the kids only do the "right" stuff. I highly recommend the book "Double Goal Coach" for these techniques. It gives the kids the vocabulary to describe their feelings, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urchina View Post
I'm also curious myself -- is there a martial art out there that I'd enjoy participating in?
For me, an art that doesn't put a huge amount of stress on the body (I have a chronic knee injury and a chronic lower back injury that require adaptation when exercise or do yoga) would be a bonus. Anything that requires a lot of kicking, twisting, or jumping is not so great for me.
Well, tai chi will get you started. And it's what you do when you're just about at your end. I'll be joining you when I reach my 70s, or possibly my 80s… if I have the short-term memory to handle the forms.

You may want to try kickboxing for its focus on strength, flexibility, & self-defense. Paddles & punching bags only, no sparring. It's a gateway drug to taekwondo but the kickboxing workouts are actually harder (more aerobic) because you're in constant motion. Taekwondo sparring is much more about anaerobic endurance.

If you're feeling competitive, judo and taekwondo are the only martial arts currently awarding medals at the Olympics. Both have strong professional & amateur national/international competition, both for adults (of all ages) and kids. IIRC karate is also an Olympic contender but I don't know their status.

I tore both my ACLs (one at a time) in three months of judo. Today I realize that my problem was lifting heavy opponents and then twisting my joints instead of using the opponent's momentum. The instructor's problem was that he didn't recognize my bad technique and (when I hurt my knees) he didn't realize what had happened. (I was two years into taekwondo before I sought a doctor for an MRI and a diagnosis.) But maybe you'll have better luck with judo. Stay on your toes and stay off your heels.

I've been told that aikido & hapkido are what you do when you're so old and creaky that you're unable to do anything else but tai chi. Lots of weapons and joint locks in Hawaii, both of which I'm reluctant to get involved with for fear of further injury.

I like taekwondo for its full-contact sparring. I especially like that my daughter has learned to take a wicked pounding (not from me-- teen girls are scary nasty vicious fighters) and still come back to succeed. I also like that she never hesitates to deliver a harsh head shot if I give her the slightest opportunity. Outside the dojang many assault victims are shocked into immobility by the first contact, and she's way past that issue. However if you prefer not to spar, a good taekwondo instructor will support your training all the way to black belt without it.

I've never tried other martial arts. One of our taekwondo black belts swears by escrima, but she's Filipina and she also really likes weapons.

I should point out that the purpose of a martial art is not to avoid aggravating your knee/back injuries but rather to strengthen those parts of your body. The instructors should understand your limits and work with you, not on you. Two years ago I was wearing orthopedic knee braces (and my knees still rattled around inside them), chugging 800 mg ibuprofen every eight hours for weeks, and unable to stand comfortably for more than an hour or two. I was also frequently pulling back/neck muscles. Between the classes and the occasional conditioning clinic I'm now fully mobile and my knees are actually free of pain. Jolie Bookspan helped too. I can do full squats & lunges and even run a few miles. I only wear orthopedic braces during open sparring and then only for life insurance-- my spouse would kill me if I got injured because I wasn't wearing them.

Here's our dojang's website: http://www.oahutaekwondo.com/ The owner took a Marshallese team to the Olympics this year and he'll be back again in 2012. And yes, I do spar those guys at the bottom of the page every week, but they take it slow & easy on us geezers. To them I'm just a mobile heavy punching bag…
__________________
*

Co-author (with my daughter) of “Raising Your Money-Savvy Family For Next Generation Financial Independence.”
Author of the book written on E-R.org: "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement."

I don't spend much time here— please send a PM.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 09:54 PM   #7
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 8,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
I've been told that aikido & hapkido are what you do when you're so old and creaky that you're unable to do anything else but tai chi. Lots of weapons and joint locks in Hawaii, both of which I'm reluctant to get involved with for fear of further injury.
Never learned any hapkido, but there's an awful lot of falling down and rolling around in aikido. It's a great art, and yes, it's good for older souls, but requires some flexibility. I'd need to work out for a while (yoga or tai chi) before I would risk it now that I'm creaky and out of shape. But our sensei when I took it was a lot older than I am now, and made it look very easy.
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens)
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 12:13 AM   #8
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Goonie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North-Central Illinois
Posts: 3,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
Well, tai chi will get you started. And it's what you do when you're just about at your end. I'll be joining you when I reach my 70s, or possibly my 80s… if I have the short-term memory to handle the forms..............

I've been told that aikido & hapkido are what you do when you're so old and creaky that you're unable to do anything else but tai chi. Lots of weapons and joint locks in Hawaii, both of which I'm reluctant to get involved with for fear of further injury.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harley View Post
Never learned any hapkido, but there's an awful lot of falling down and rolling around in aikido. It's a great art, and yes, it's good for older souls, but requires some flexibility. I'd need to work out for a while (yoga or tai chi) before I would risk it now that I'm creaky and out of shape. But our sensei when I took it was a lot older than I am now, and made it look very easy.
I started in taekwondo when I was in my early 30's, but it was too much for my aging body.....way too many aches & pains for my taste. I switched over to hapkido, and loved it! Where taekwondo was more about using your force, inertia, and momentum against your opponent, hapkido was more about using your opponent's force, inertia, and momentum against them. Hapkido involved more throws and falls, and 'joint locks' or holds.....almost all of the kicks are from the waist down (few if any kicks over waist high). As for 'forms' or movements, taekwondo seemed a bit more rigid or structured, whereas hapkido was quite a bit less structured, and a bit more fluid and almost free-form.

For me hapkido was much less stressful to my aging, slightly out-of-shape body.....and caused me far fewer aches & pains. I also practiced some weaponry....especially favored the nunchucks for coordination and strengthening the arms and shoulders.

If you want to try something slow 'n' easy try taichi....you get a good workout, and it's easy to keep from straining various sensitive muscles and body parts. I 'tinkered' with it a little, and am considering doing it on a regular basis.
Goonie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 08:58 AM   #9
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,319
I think 4 is really young for a person to start MA. Meditation for a little child? No. No, no, no, no no... not going to happen. Find some other activity the child can do to stay active, in my opinion. If your heart is set on it, look around. It hardly depends on style for a tot. You want a program geared towards little kids. Watch and see if it seems fun and safe.

For you, as I don't know you, couldn't say specifically. But as a long time martial arts instructor I'd give a general reply. Save yourself the effort and aggravation. Find something you like to do and do that. Whatever art you start, the chances of you still being involved in 6 months is just about nil. It's a not uncommon fantasy people have that just doesn't survive contact with reality. Sorry if this sounds too negative. Just my observation.
__________________
We are, as I have said, one equation short. – Keynes
ronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 09:23 AM   #10
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,483
My oldest son (9) has been taking karate for 3 and a half years. He has a mild case of ADD, and the karate has helped a ton. He now wears a red belt with a black stripe on it. He is involved in year round sports (baseball, basketball, and football), and those activites have helped his karate and vice versa.

His next belt graduation will bring him to brown. His goal is to have a black belt by age 11. I think he will continue because he likes it. There was no downside, except after the "trial period" of 6 months, we had to sign up for a longer term commitment.........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 11:20 AM   #11
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 36
I agree with Nords: at age 4, it doesn't matter which MA your son is in.

I did judo for a while. I broke my collarbone, and my tibia+fibula while sparring with much heavier opponents than me.

You can see a number of MA here:
AskMen.com - Top 10: Martial Arts
I hope you'll see one that you like.
bdk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 12:21 PM   #12
Full time employment: Posting here.
Kronk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Philly 'burbs
Posts: 547
I'll agree with much of what has been said and add my 2 cents here.

The most important thing is to find a good school. The flavor of martial art matters much less in the first couple of years than being in a good school -- one that will build foundations for body movement, and one that won't get you hurt in the process.

That being said, martial arts can be divided into a few arbitrary groupings, though some might nitpick with my groupings, and it isn't an exhaustive list:

Striking arts: Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Thai Kick boxing
Grappling arts: Judo, Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu
Blending arts: Aikido, Hapkido, Chin Na, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu
Weapons: Kendo, Kali/arnis/eskrima/silat

Of those, I feel that it is best to start with one of the primary striking arts: karate, TKD, or Kung Fu. Thai boxing is great, but there's a lot more emphasis on hitting and being hit.

The grappling arts can be brutal on the body -- I've had a number of injuries from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and those schools tend to attract the 18-30 year old guys who wrestled in high school. Judo isn't easy to pick up as a first discipline.

Aikido involves a lot of great controlled movement, but it also involves a lot of falling. You'd be taught how to fall and roll safely, so it can still be a very good first art. Hapkido technically contains all of Tae Kwon Do, but more often classes are more similar to Aikido (with strikes) than TKD. My school doesn't offer Hapkido to anyone who isn't at least a green belt in TKD.

I'm not a big fan of Kendo as something I'd like to learn. But the Filipino arts (kali/eskrima/silat) are awesome. Most of the time they'll be a lot less rough on the body, though getting smacked in the hands with a stick is no fun. If there's a decent school of that sort in your area, it might be worth a look-see. The techniques are designed to work with stick/sword/knife/open hand, so it is a very flexible system. If I had time, that's the one I'd add to my TKD, Hapkido, and BJJ training.
Kronk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 12:27 PM   #13
Full time employment: Posting here.
Kronk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Philly 'burbs
Posts: 547
Oh, and as an addendum, for a 4-year-old, Karate, TKD and Kung Fu are still the best choices. Any of the others will be too complex for them to do well and safely.

I was trying to teach a 9-year-old how to do a soft roll last night, at which I failed miserably... :-)
Kronk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 12:41 PM   #14
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronk View Post
Oh, and as an addendum, for a 4-year-old, Karate, TKD and Kung Fu are still the best choices. Any of the others will be too complex for them to do well and safely.

I was trying to teach a 9-year-old how to do a soft roll last night, at which I failed miserably... :-)
I know from personal experience that a bo can hurt.........

__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 04:19 PM   #15
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
frayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chattanooga
Posts: 3,871
One word for ya, Yoga;

Why I Want To Try Yoga*Video
frayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 05:53 PM   #16
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
I know from personal experience that a bo can hurt.........
Petty interesting FD, but I'm afraid that Frayne's yoga trumps ya permanently.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 10:10 AM   #17
Full time employment: Posting here.
Urchina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central Coast, California
Posts: 923
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Ronin, it's completely possible that this is a passing fancy and that my first day inside a MA school will also be my last. But, it's also possible that I totally dig it. Right now finding the time to do anything is my biggest challenge, but I'd do better with a set class.

As for meditation -- well, both of my kids easily move into meditative states. The fact that they have rich inner lives helps. But I'm looking at MA for them mainly as a healthy outlet for their energy.

BdK, I found your link really helpful. Seeing the arts performed really differentiated them for me. Aikido was the easy winner for me, but I think what I'll do is look for a good teacher (per Nords' comments) and then go from there. For kids, it looks like the options in our area are kung-fu or Karate. I'll also prepare for our kids to switch ideas about what they want to do -- I do this, too (dilettante that I am).

And, have any of you EVER been to a yoga class where the women (all the women, I might add) wore bikinis? Yeah, didn't think so. Nice try, though.
__________________
"You'd be surprised at how much it costs to look this cheap." -- Dolly Parton
Urchina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 09:38 PM   #18
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 8,764
Here's a good Wushu video. I had to quit while I was still learning the Bo. I never got this far.

__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous (not Will Rogers or Sam Clemens)
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 12:29 PM   #19
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,085
Surprised nobody mentioned it, but if there is a salle or instructor in the area, don't rule out fencing. Very much gets you in shape and should not be too bad on the body, depending on the weapon chosen. And typically you do not get whacked hard enough for even a bruise, although clumsy beginners can accidentally deliver a bruise or welt.
__________________
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

- George Orwell

Ezekiel 23:20
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 01:16 PM   #20
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Surprised nobody mentioned it, but if there is a salle or instructor in the area, don't rule out fencing. Very much gets you in shape and should not be too bad on the body, depending on the weapon chosen. And typically you do not get whacked hard enough for even a bruise, although clumsy beginners can accidentally deliver a bruise or welt.
My ex is a fencer. Excellent exercise, and in their own way, pretty sexy outfits. All that lunging builds some awesome bottoms.

But when an older adult takes up something like this, aren't your opponents mostly Eastern Europeans and former Olympians who have been doing this since they were in Communist Youth Organizations? It's like handball. Everyone you play against started at Coney Island 60 years ago and while they might look decrepit they are really good!

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Martial Arts ronin Other topics 30 12-14-2009 10:51 AM
Motorhome purchase? Pros/Cons! greenhm Life after FIRE 223 07-27-2008 03:49 PM
Pros and Cons of New Forum Software TromboneAl Forum Admin 42 06-06-2007 06:06 AM
Index Funds Pros and Cons Pale Rider FIRE and Money 91 09-29-2006 10:38 AM
Nords - something to work into your martial arts program... cute fuzzy bunny Other topics 3 06-02-2005 05:38 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:24 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.