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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 11:51 AM   #161
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Why do you hate America?
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 11:53 AM   #162
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

May I insert this here...?

[img width=562 height=750]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/cutefuzzybunny/opiekayakpizza.jpg[/img]
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 11:57 AM   #163
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Hey, there's no boobs in that pic! You can do better. In the meantime, there's this: http://www.fandango.net/polaroid/POOP.gif
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 12:07 PM   #164
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

There are too boobs in that picture. At least two. Maybe three. Possibly four!
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 12:09 PM   #165
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Okay. I must respect OP in a kayak. That is sacred.

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Originally Posted by Cute 'n' Fuzzy Bunny
May I insert this here...?

[img width=562 height=750]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/cutefuzzybunny/opiekayakpizza.jpg[/img]
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 01:32 PM   #166
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Let's recall what this discussion is about. It is about a particular event where a particular group of people in Minnesota are trying not to change existing law (the law is already in their favor) but to place additional hurddles on anyone who might want to modify the law in the future.
Sgeeeeeee, are you sure you're not really JG's split personality? You had three posts in a row there, all replying to me.

I was just throwing out some food for thought, and to give you something to fill your time up with. The whole gay marriage thing doesn't really matter to me much. The outcome of the issue has very little relevance to my personal life. I was more or less playing devil's (or god's ) advocate since it looked like group think had set in.

I personally think the issue isn't as cut and dry as you make it seem.

My personal feelings are as follows: If I was the one setting the policy, I'd probably allow domestic partnerships to be state-recognized by civil unions. Civil unions would confer the same rights and responsibilities as man-woman marriage. The main difference would be the name of the legal institution being entered into. If there were a referendum on this issue I'd most likely vote in favor of civil unions. I still believe marriage = man+woman, but who am I to judge a man+man or woman+woman committed relationship invalid and hence deny both partners the rights and responsibilities of their heterosexual counterparts.

But back to the issue being discussed - why would opponents of gay marriage push for a state constitutional amendment prohibiting the state from recognizing same-sex marriages? Aside from making a statement reflecting their opinion of gays/gay marriage, the main benefit as I see it would be to prevent liberal activist state judges from interpreting their constitution in such a manner as to legislate gay marriage into existence by judicial fiat. A constitutional amendment clearly stating that marriage = man+woman would effectively force state judges to follow the constitution and not recognize gay marriages. The proponents of the constitutional amendment banning gay marriage are trying to ensure that gay marriage, if enacted, is enacted through the political process instead of in the activist courts. I'm not advocating the position of the anti-gay marriage folks, just trying to explain the reasoning of their strategy.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 02:29 PM   #167
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Let's consider where marriage in our society really comes from. Isn't it really just a cultural construct created to recognize certain property rights and to aid in social stability? This status was endorsed both by governments and by church as mutually beneficial in maintining social order, recognizing property rights and discouraging behaviors that the church would view as "sinful".

So the recognition of marriage is only what the ruling society deems it to be.

Why not view this as they do in Europe, as a two-step process: First, the legal, civil, recorded civil ceremony that gives legal teeth to a union of two consenting adults, at least one of which is a citizen and resident of the state issuing the certificate.

The second is the optional religious service that couples may choose to celebrate and have the church sanction their union. You can have all the priests, chaplains, bridesmaids and unity candles you want, but you are not legally married in the US without step #1, the state-endorsed certificate, with signed witnesses and commiserate fees paid and recorded (apart from certain recognitions of common-law marriage).

Get the church OUT of the legal recognition of marriage/civil union, in the same way that the government does not interfere with the church's performance of marriage rites. Churches can therefore refuse or agree to perform services for gay or straight couples, all the while calling to their attention that, while they might view themselves married "in the eyes of God", they will not be so recognized by the state until they get that certificate, civil ceremony and pay fee.

Hasn't our society migrated signifcantly from the norm of marriage altogether? Legally recognized nor religiously-sanctioned marriages are seemingly unnecessary in many people's choices. So why not let those who do wish to make a legal (with perhaps and optionally additional spiritually-sanctioned, publicly displayed, ceremonial event) commitment do so, as citizens of the US and the state, regardless of gender

Live and let live......and love conquers all!
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 02:34 PM   #168
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by justin
* Who is to be the arbiter of whether "homosexuality is ok" or "homosexuality is bad"?*
Each individual. It's fair and consistent with the funamental principles of our democracy.
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 02:49 PM   #169
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Under current proposals, will gay civil unions / marriages result in the happy couple paying the "marriage tax?" Or, will they still be able to file as two singles for purposes of federal income tax?
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 03:09 PM   #170
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starry Night
Why not view this as they do in Europe, as a two-step process: First, the legal, civil, recorded civil ceremony that gives legal teeth to a union of two consenting adults, at least one of which is a citizen and resident of the state issuing the certificate.

The second is the optional religious service that couples may choose to celebrate and have the church sanction their union. You can have all the priests, chaplains, bridesmaids and unity candles you want, but you are not legally married in the US without step #1, the state-endorsed certificate, with signed witnesses and commiserate fees paid and recorded (apart from certain recognitions of common-law marriage).

Get the church OUT of the legal recognition of marriage/civil union, in the same way that the government does not interfere with the church's performance of marriage rites. Churches can therefore refuse or agree to perform services for gay or straight couples, all the while calling to their attention that, while they might view themselves married "in the eyes of God", they will not be so recognized by the state until they get that certificate, civil ceremony and pay fee.
I don't know about all states, but it is my understanding that most states don't require any sort of religious ceremony at all. Justices of the Peace, magistrates, and/or judges can usually perform marriages in most states. The "European" model, as you have described it, seems to be predominately available in most/all states in the U.S.

I actually had a civil ceremony by a magistrate that signed a piece of paper, read the state mandated marriage vows and then we were married (after paying the $12 or whatever it was). No church required. That seems to be a pretty common way to get married, particularly if you aren't real big into mainstream religion, you're poor, or it's not your first marriage.

We then went on to have a more traditional wedding, however the officiant wasn't ordained per my state's laws.

That churches refuse to wed couples of the same sex isn't a bar to marriage in and of itself.

On an interesting side note, the institution of marriage itself was governed by ecclesiastical law in most (or all) European countries up until a century or two ago. Marriage has undergone a radical transformation since then in the West.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 03:13 PM   #171
 
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by youbet
Under current proposals, will gay civil unions / marriages result in the happy couple paying the "marriage tax?" Or, will they still be able to file as two singles for purposes of federal income tax?
Or - will the gay couple with a stay at home parent, now have the state subsidize their relationship by being able to file a 'joint' return and pay less tax than a single person?
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 04:04 PM   #172
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
The whole gay marriage thing doesn't really matter to me much. The outcome of the issue has very little relevance to my personal life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
I have yet to see a valid, cohesive argument in favor of gay marriage that doesn't rely on values and beliefs.
my uncle once asked if his daughter was gay. i said, well, she's been living with the same woman for 20 years, what do you think? he got upset with her that she wouldn't "be honest" with him. he said to me, "what do i care who's she with."

when my ol'man died, i took it pretty hard. after all, as a str8 cousin of mine says, i'm just an over emotional gay man. while mom grieved, this same uncle took control of my mother's will and got her to sign away my inheritance. this guy tried to give my inheritance to my brother's kids. i would get only a trust and then my little niece and nephews would get the principal at my death. when mom came back to her senses she was horrified that she had been so manipulated and put things right.

so this loving liberal relative who says it doesn't matter to him tried to treat me as less than a child, less than a person. how does that play into those belief arguments? not even knowing if the kids are gay, he assumes they are str8. then he assumes that i will not adopt children of my own who maybe could use that money (oops, wait, he's right, i forgot, florida won't allow me to adopt.) never mind that he forgets that i'm as much a human being as my brother is, as my niece is, as my nephews are. only i'm gay. guess it matters, huh?

jews being slaughtered in europe had very little relevance to the lives of those around them. blacks and native americans treated as cattle had very little relevance to the lives of those around them. air pollution coming out of a neighbors property has very little relevance to those around them. gays treated as subhuman have very little relevance to those around them.

even attempts to disguise as liberal (enough, at least, so that it doesn't matter) fall short of the mark. i hope this doesn't come off as persecution because i certainly don't mean to stifle opposition.
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 04:32 PM   #173
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum
jews being slaughtered in europe had very little relevance to the lives of those around them. blacks and native americans treated as cattle had very little relevance to the lives of those around them. air pollution coming out of a neighbors property has very little relevance to those around them. gays treated as subhuman have very little relevance to those around them.
When I say "the whole gay marriage thing doesn't really matter to me much", you might think I'm just another indifferent a$$hat that loves to hate gays. On the contrary, I'm just indifferent. I don't go out gaybashing, and I don't go out waving any rainbow flags. I have about 50 other issues that are more important to me at this point in my life. It is just a non-issue for me. Sort of like air pollution; just a non-issue. If gays were being killed off by the millions, or treated like blacks or native americans were back in the day, I would be much more concerned. Maybe concerned enough to do something about it if our fearless leaders weren't.

If I see a real flamboyant gay dude flaunting his stuff around town, I giggle and whisper "He he, did you see that gay dude?". To be fair, I do that about poor white trash, rednecks, hillbillies, Fundamentalists, non-whites, etc if they obviously fit a stereotype and it strikes me as noteworthy. I have gay friends and family and it's sort of a non-issue for me.

When I go home at night after a long day at the office and I have 0.75 hours of free time to do with as I wish, I have to choose wisely. I could use it to fight for gay rights, or I could spend the 0.75 hours with my wife and kid. Or surfing the web, or watching tv, or getting drunk. Fighting for gay rights is low on my priority list. I'll leave the (rainbow) flag waving for others.
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 04:34 PM   #174
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Or - will the gay couple with a stay at home parent, now have the state subsidize their relationship by being able to file a 'joint' return and pay less tax than a single person?
Good point CT.

I was just trying to understand whether those seeking the establishment of gay civil unions or marriages had detailed their positions on the tax consequences. *The plan being pushed in Wisconsin would leave gay couples free to declare single or married, whichever is to their advantage, on their Wisconsin state income tax form. *Is this where things are headed for federal tax laws?
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 04:36 PM   #175
 
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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jews being slaughtered in europe had very little relevance to the lives of those around them. blacks and native americans treated as cattle had very little relevance to the lives of those around them. air pollution coming out of a neighbors property has very little relevance to those around them. gays treated as subhuman have very little relevance to those around them.
Well said. - Someone else once said something to the effect of:

ĎAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 04:38 PM   #176
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

does "jews being slaughtered in Europe" count as someone mentioning hitler? Is this thread over?

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 04:58 PM   #177
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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I'm just indifferent.
no kidding. so's my uncle. i would rather you hate us.
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 05:13 PM   #178
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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no kidding. so's my uncle. i would rather you hate us.
?

I'm not your uncle. He sounds like he isn't indifferent.

It isn't really clear to me why you want me to hate you/gays in general. I don't know you personally, but you seem to identify a lot with your sexual orientation. Why does it bother you so much that it is a non-issue for me?
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 05:24 PM   #179
 
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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?

Why does it bother you so much that it is a non-issue for me?
I'm sure that Civil rights in the 60's and Womens rights in the 20s would have been a non-issue for you also. As long as you're a white man why should you care?
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 05:26 PM   #180
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Well said.* - Someone else once said something to the effect of:

ĎAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"
Bush made this statement prior to "Shock and Awe."
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