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Old 03-07-2011, 01:13 PM   #61
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Libraries are governed by fair use principle this is the issue.
Is that true? I'm not sure. I thought that an author could decide to NOT submit their works to libraries. Can a Library claim 'fair use' of any work that they purchase?

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When you "buy" a copyrighted product you are not buying the product, you are buying the right to read it (or listen, in the case of music) and have no rights to sell it.
Is that true? I'm pretty sure I can buy a CD, and then sell it legally. I can't legally sell a copy of it, or keep a copy that I made, but I bought it, and if I physically hand it over, I think I can sell it. No?

If you are talking about an electronic work, then if there were the mechanism, I should be able to sell it if I also sell the 'key' with it.

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Old 03-07-2011, 02:33 PM   #62
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So, what should the limit be? thirty two? Eleven thousand? Why would the recipients be expected to decide? The author and publisher should reserve the right to how their intellectual property is distributed, even in "free" format. Putting it into the public domain without restrictions is giving their income stream away, but I'm sure many of our social welfare engineering fans here expect that. (Those filthy rich authors can afford it, it's their moral obligation to give that income away......)

Don't know if someone responded to you on this as I just started reading....


But... if a library has a hard copy, the publisher does NOT have the ability to restrict the library on how many times they can lend it out... the Supreme Court has decided that issue.... so if they want to lend out a book eleven thousand times... they can... but if that was one time a day it would take 30 years...
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:34 PM   #63
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Is that true? I'm not sure. I thought that an author could decide to NOT submit their works to libraries. Can a Library claim 'fair use' of any work that they purchase?
Not an expert. My understanding is the agreements are between libraries and publishers, not individual authors, and libraries are free to purchase books for their lending. They are not allowed to resell or donate.

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If you are talking about an electronic work, then if there were the mechanism, I should be able to sell it if I also sell the 'key' with it.
Only if the author allows it. If the author say no (single use license), then you cannot resell or even transfer to another media that is within your personal use.

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Is that true? I'm pretty sure I can buy a CD, and then sell it legally. I can't legally sell a copy of it, or keep a copy that I made, but I bought it, and if I physically hand it over, I think I can sell it. No?
The first sale rule allows you to sell that which you purchased. Originally for books but later expanded to music. So if you buy a book or a CD, you can sell it later on. You still never own the content, just that specific media. My point to WS was regarding the student reselling multiple copies of an e-book. This is clearly unlawful in the case of digital music and there is no reason it should be any different for digital writing.
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:08 PM   #64
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My point to WS was regarding the student reselling multiple copies of an e-book. This is clearly unlawful in the case of digital music and there is no reason it should be any different for digital writing.
I'm using textbooks as an example, but the principle is the same. Each student would only have to sell the one copy they bought from the previous student to turn one "legal" copy of a textbook into tens of thousands of "legal" copies, the author would only receive a royalty on the first copy sold. Fair use?

This isn't a problem with physical books, as each copy can only be in one place at one time thus only usable to one reader at a time, e-books can be emailed in seconds and reside on many different computers, each usable simultaneuously. (protections are easily hacked, and worse case, pdf's can be easily created with a scanner, I-phone, or with commercial software.)
And pdf's are a lot easier than copying physical texts, I knew a guy in college (30+ years ago) who "lent" xeroxed copies of textbooks, I believe he actually had a work-study job for one of the University offices and used their copiers after hours...usually the "lending" consisted of "sharing" recreational substances.
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:46 PM   #65
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I'm using textbooks as an example, but the principle is the same. Each student would only have to sell the one copy they bought from the previous student to turn one "legal" copy of a textbook into tens of thousands of "legal" copies, the author would only receive a royalty on the first copy sold. Fair use?

This isn't a problem with physical books, as each copy can only be in one place at one time thus only usable to one reader at a time, e-books can be emailed in seconds and reside on many different computers, each usable simultaneuously. (protections are easily hacked, and worse case, pdf's can be easily created with a scanner, I-phone, or with commercial software.)
And pdf's are a lot easier than copying physical texts, I knew a guy in college (30+ years ago) who "lent" xeroxed copies of textbooks, I believe he actually had a work-study job for one of the University offices and used their copiers after hours...usually the "lending" consisted of "sharing" recreational substances.
Photocopying for sale is unlawful. Hacking protections is as well, covered by the DMCA. E-books copyright can be use-limited, just as computer SW is today, so I do not see a legal issue here.
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Old 03-07-2011, 05:28 PM   #66
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Photocopying for sale is unlawful. Hacking protections is as well, covered by the DMCA. E-books copyright can be use-limited, just as computer SW is today, so I do not see a legal issue here.
Actually reproduction (tangible or intangible) for distribution is a copyright violation - this is how the peer-to-peer sharing sites were attacked. For many years a profit element was required for a violation, but that was changed maybe 10 years or so ago. But your point is still valid - anything other than the first copy in WS' example would be a violation of copyright law.

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The price for a tv or car is set in a marketplace, not by the manufacturer (that would be unlawful).
I think I'm misunderstanding your statement or missing something. What law is violated if a manufacturer sets a price for their product?
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Old 03-07-2011, 05:43 PM   #67
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Westernskies -- I think we have been talking around each other. You keep talking about unlimited copies as if we are talking about libraries (or students with their e-text books) simply taking an ebook and giving it out to multiple people willy nilly. That would be illegal and is not at all what we are talking about. We are talking about libraries purchasing a license for an ebook and then lending that copy to one person. WHen that person "returns" the book (or when it expires) it is wiped from the lendee's hard drive. Then the library lends it out to person number two. A limit of 26 means that for a best seller the library would have to repurchase the license after a year or so unlike with a physical book that would last for years or decades. Similarly with an e-text book or an ebook your purchase from Amazon your are not free to distribute unlimited copies (i.e. put it in the public domain as your stated). But you can pass it on to a friend when you are done. And that friend can pass it on again. Or, at least, you should be able to if the e copy is treated like a physical book. I think in practice, lending copies to friends from Kindle to Kindle is more limited than that - probably to some extend due to technical limitations of DRM software.

I am sympathetic with the publishers (to a degree). They need to be able to make a profit or there won't be any books for any of us to read. But I suspect they are over reaching with their DRM protectionism. They are letting people pass ebooks on to some extent (probably in hopes to forestall adverse court decisions about sharing) but from what I have heard they are pretty nit picky about it. I am considering getting a tablet computer this year -- maybe I will get a chance to check this stuff out in person
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Old 03-07-2011, 06:40 PM   #68
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Westernskies -- I think we have been talking around each other. You keep talking about unlimited copies as if we are talking about libraries (or students with their e-text books) simply taking an ebook and giving it out to multiple people willy nilly. That would be illegal and is not at all what we are talking about. We are talking about libraries purchasing a license for an ebook and then lending that copy to one person. WHen that person "returns" the book (or when it expires) it is wiped from the lendee's hard drive. Then the library lends it out to person number two. A limit of 26 means that for a best seller the library would have to repurchase the license after a year or so unlike with a physical book that would last for years or decades. Similarly with an e-text book or an ebook your purchase from Amazon your are not free to distribute unlimited copies (i.e. put it in the public domain as your stated). But you can pass it on to a friend when you are done. And that friend can pass it on again. Or, at least, you should be able to if the e copy is treated like a physical book. I think in practice, lending copies to friends from Kindle to Kindle is more limited than that - probably to some extend due to technical limitations of DRM software.

I am sympathetic with the publishers (to a degree). They need to be able to make a profit or there won't be any books for any of us to read. But I suspect they are over reaching with their DRM protectionism. They are letting people pass ebooks on to some extent (probably in hopes to forestall adverse court decisions about sharing) but from what I have heard they are pretty nit picky about it. I am considering getting a tablet computer this year -- maybe I will get a chance to check this stuff out in person

Textbooks was the example I chose, because :
1. They are expensive
2. Multiple users need the same tome, sometimes year after year
3. College kids are pretty ingenious, well-networked, and most would rather spend money on beer than books.

I BOUGHT an out-of print e-book two days ago, downloaded as a copyrighted file in a "protected pdf format" for $10. Out of print copies, rarely available, are $150+. I wanted to read it on my Kindle, but, unfortunately, it wasn't available in Kindle format. So, voila, quick Google search and a free program download later, I converted it to a Kindle-readable pdf document, and an adobe-readable pdf document. The copyright meant nothing to the conversion program. I now can share it with anyone (loan or give a copy) if I were so inclined. And, I''m just a crusty old technophobe, not some savvy young technogeek, but it became evident to me pretty quick that electronic books have little or no downstream distribution limitations, unlike one- at -a -time published versions.

Publishers and authors have a right to be careful with their intellectual property, IMO. YMMV.
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:03 PM   #69
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Textbooks was the example I chose, because :
1. They are expensive
2. Multiple users need the same tome, sometimes year after year
3. College kids are pretty ingenious, well-networked, and most would rather spend money on beer than books.

I BOUGHT an out-of print e-book two days ago, downloaded as a copyrighted file in a "protected pdf format" for $10. Out of print copies, rarely available, are $150+. I wanted to read it on my Kindle, but, unfortunately, it wasn't available in Kindle format. So, voila, quick Google search and a free program download later, I converted it to a Kindle-readable pdf document, and an adobe-readable pdf document. The copyright meant nothing to the conversion program. I now can share it with anyone (loan or give a copy) if I were so inclined. And, I''m just a crusty old technophobe, not some savvy young technogeek, but it became evident to me pretty quick that electronic books have little or no downstream distribution limitations, unlike one- at -a -time published versions.

Publishers and authors have a right to be careful with their intellectual property, IMO. YMMV.
I understand that people can pirate music, videos, and ebooks. They do it all the time. It is, however, illegal. The RIAA has successfully sued a number of people for doing it. That doesn't mean that people who actually purchase the items should be penalized for fair use. All that would do is encourage honest people to do what you just described. As I said, I don't begrudge publishers making a buck. I hope they can will come up with some useable schemes for transifering rights in a digital copy to someone you want to give (or sell) your book to.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:11 PM   #70
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The price for a tv or car is set in a marketplace, not by the manufacturer (that would be unlawful).

I think I'm misunderstanding your statement or missing something. What law is violated if a manufacturer sets a price for their product?
I was wondering this as well. If I don't like their price, I won't buy it.

-ERD50
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:18 PM   #71
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I think that worries about digital rights management, self-destructing digital media, and other schemes for generating artificial scarcity will pass. They're really just a prop to hold up an existing supply/demand model built around what had been limited access to content.

Eventually new models will arise that don't depend on collecting a toll for each copy of a piece of content that enters distribution. As many here have noted, technologically, digital copies are essentially free to replicate, and unbounded in the number of replications that can be done with no loss of quality.

On the music side, bands like RadioHead have already realized that the real money is made in live concerts, t-shirt sales and whatnot, and the digital media act as free publicity.

There's a long history in the science fiction writing community of authors auctioning off naming rights for characters, usually with funds received going to charity. Jerry Pournelle still writes his old columns, along with other stuff, and puts it all up on his web site with a PayPal tin cup hanging out front. Corey Doctorow has played with selling simple advertising ("Sponsored by Ubuntu") in a short story collection.

I suspect that we'll see new business models built around 'free' as we shift digital media from an economy of artificial scarcity to one of abundance. A new author might put out some works to attract attention, and if well received, hang out the PayPal tin cup and promise to release the next book when there's $10,000 in the cup. (Should he burn his readers, word will quickly get out on the reputation network. Heck, you could even get a barter economy of reputation points going.)

Zero-cost distribution is turning sharing into an industry. It's the externalities (non-money scarcity, like attention, or reputation) that may form the basis for economic activity in this area.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:34 PM   #72
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Eventually new models will arise that don't depend on collecting a toll for each copy of a piece of content that enters distribution.
I hope we'll find a way to keep publishers (not just artists) in the business. With music there was a lot of hope that "flat" distribution would allow unknown artists to sell directly to the public, retain artistic control, and cut out the middleman. The public would find the gems and they'd be rewarded. Some of that has happened, but I'm not sure that overall the situation is better today than in the days of vinyl. Bringing down the "barriers to entry" (with desktop studios and instant distribution) has not been an unalloyed blessing. As a consumer, it's just too much trouble to sort through the mountain of chaff to find something I might enjoy. Record companies did a pretty good job of spotting talent and putting it into easily searched "bins." The situation with literature will be even more of a headache for consumers: It's easy to sample 20 seconds of a song and see if I like it, but I sure don't want to invest 30 minutes reading a self-published book to figure out if an author has talent. I'd be just as happy to let editors and publishers retain that traditional headache.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:44 PM   #73
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I think that worries about digital rights management, self-destructing digital media, and other schemes for generating artificial scarcity will pass. They're really just a prop to hold up an existing supply/demand model built around what had been limited access to content.

Eventually new models will arise that don't depend on collecting a toll for each copy of a piece of content that enters distribution. ...

On the music side, bands like RadioHead have already realized that the real money is made in live concerts, t-shirt sales and whatnot, and the digital media act as free publicity.
Exactly - like some of us have said, digital copies are just a different ballgame from physical copies. Trying to bend them to fit the same rules will be as successful as feeding hay and oats to the new-fangled horseless-carriage would have been.

Similar to how TV is dealing with the ability to skip commercials - they embed the ad right in the show. Adapt or die.

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Old 03-07-2011, 11:21 PM   #74
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I value the libraries and use many of the available services. There is much more than books, e-books, and DVD's to most library systems. Libraries are a great place to go to read magazines and I think most have computers that can be used for internet surfing.

A volunteer group I'm involved with uses a community room at a local library for the monthly meeting. Without the library room it would be difficult to find an alternative meeting room.

I use the Value Line service that I access through my libraries website. Purchasing my own VL subscription would be in excess of $500/yr and probably not something I would do.

Libraries also have subscriptions to research tools like ancestry.com and archives to newspapers dating back over 100 years. Some of the resources are available via website and some require using the resource at the library. There are book groups, discussion groups, movie nights, and many volunteer opportunities available through libraries. Recently I read that one library system near me has passes that can be checked out to visit local attractions so that is something else I find useful.
100 % agree! A good library builds civic pride and consciousness because of all the things you mention, and more. Our main library is used for frequent authors' readings, poetry recitals, musical presentations, etc, all well attended. Also, in a community like mine with many ethnic groups, the library often has language learning resources, as well as translations of many health and civic awareness documents, and it is very heavily used for these things too.

I consider our library to be a giant service both to the larger community and various sub-communities, but also to me personally.

Similar in offerings but more focused and smaller in scope are the University Bookstore and REI.

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Old 03-08-2011, 06:08 AM   #75
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I think I'm misunderstanding your statement or missing something. What law is violated if a manufacturer sets a price for their product?
Manufacturers can suggest prices and recommend prices but cannot set them. The price needs to be set by the retailer. If the manufacturer sets the final retail price it is violating federal anti-trust law.
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:33 AM   #76
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Manufacturers can suggest prices and recommend prices but cannot set them. The price needs to be set by the retailer. If the manufacturer sets the final retail price it is violating federal anti-trust law.
That can't be true, Apple for one high profile example does it all the time. hmmm. google, google, google...


Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Competition - Resource Guide to Business Competition
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Reasonable price, territory, and customer restrictions on dealers are legal. .... . For instance, an agreement between a manufacturer and dealer to set maximum (or "ceiling") prices prevents dealers from charging a non-competitive price. Or an agreement to set minimum (or "floor") prices or to limit territories may encourage dealers to provide a level of service that the manufacturer wants to offer to consumers when they buy the product.

.... If a manufacturer, on its own, adopts a policy regarding a desired level of prices, the law allows the manufacturer to deal only with retailers who agree to that policy. A manufacturer also may stop dealing with a retailer that does not follow its resale price policy. That is, a manufacturer can implement a dealer policy on a "take it or leave it" basis.
Personally, I don't care if a mfg wants to fix the retail price or not. They are the seller, it's up to them. The product is either worth the offer price to me or it isn't. They still have to compete with others who are free to fix the retail price or not.

And I'll keep offering my nicely sharpened #2 pencil for $2,000,000. It's a limited edition unit, one of a kind. I doubt I'll get any takers, but I can't see why it should be illegal for me to offer it for sale.

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Old 03-08-2011, 08:11 AM   #77
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That can't be true, Apple for one high profile example does it all the time. hmmm. google, google, google...


Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Competition - Resource Guide to Business Competition


Personally, I don't care if a mfg wants to fix the retail price or not. They are the seller, it's up to them. The product is either worth the offer price to me or it isn't. They still have to compete with others who are free to fix the retail price or not.

And I'll keep offering my nicely sharpened #2 pencil for $2,000,000. It's a limited edition unit, one of a kind. I doubt I'll get any takers, but I can't see why it should be illegal for me to offer it for sale.

-ERD50
ERD, a manufacturer can establish a price range and only deal with resellers willing to sell within the limits of that range, but they cannot set a fixed price. Apple can agree with it's distribution network for a price range for the iPod but then each is free to set final price within that range.

I didn't get the rest of your post.
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:53 AM   #78
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ERD, a manufacturer can establish a price range and only deal with resellers willing to sell within the limits of that range, but they cannot set a fixed price. Apple can agree with it's distribution network for a price range for the iPod but then each is free to set final price within that range.
That's just semantics. So they set the min at $999.98 and the max at $1000.00. Or maybe 999.99 for both min/max (I guess that depends how the law is written).

Quote:
I didn't get the rest of your post.
I guess I'm not surprised

Bottom line is, outside of monopoly-like powers, a transaction is agreed to between the buyer and the seller. As long as there is transparency, there is nothing 'wrong' or 'unfair' about offering any price at all. The buyer can simply say "No thanks".

People seem to not acknowledge this when they want the govt to set price controls. Let the individual decide, I say. BTW, I think govt regulations regarding transparency are sometimes needed. The deal should be clear, but then it's up to me to make/take the offer or not.

-ERD50
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Old 03-08-2011, 09:49 AM   #79
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They're really just a prop to hold up an existing supply/demand model built around what had been limited access to content.
Limited access to content?
Translation, please.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:03 AM   #80
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Textbooks was the example I chose, because :
1. They are expensive
2. Multiple users need the same tome, sometimes year after year
3. College kids are pretty ingenious, well-networked, and most would rather spend money on beer than books.

I BOUGHT an out-of print e-book two days ago, downloaded as a copyrighted file in a "protected pdf format" for $10. Out of print copies, rarely available, are $150+. I wanted to read it on my Kindle, but, unfortunately, it wasn't available in Kindle format. So, voila, quick Google search and a free program download later, I converted it to a Kindle-readable pdf document, and an adobe-readable pdf document. The copyright meant nothing to the conversion program. I now can share it with anyone (loan or give a copy) if I were so inclined. And, I''m just a crusty old technophobe, not some savvy young technogeek, but it became evident to me pretty quick that electronic books have little or no downstream distribution limitations, unlike one- at -a -time published versions.

Publishers and authors have a right to be careful with their intellectual property, IMO. YMMV.
I will add a bit to this...


What you described is illegal... what you suggest students will do is illegal... there is nothing that can be done at this time to prevent it... so even if they had a 26 lend limit... someone would hack it and it would be available for people who do not want to pay for it..

The only thing that has changed is that law abiding people will have the costs go up at their library...


Now, I wonder if they want to put a 26 'give away' limit on the books... IOW, if you have a book on kindle and give it to me.. we now have 25 gives left... (I do not know if you can give a book.... I don't have a reader)...
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