Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 08:50 AM   #1
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Fred's current piece contains some speculation on the possibility of the grunts on the ground in Iraq refusing orders at some point in the future. I think this is highly nlikely for a variety of reasons, but he mentions in passing some stuff that went on in Viet Nam where the troops started telling officers to go siht in their hats when ordered to do what sounds like suicidal stuff. Anyone know the history around what happened in VN with troops refusing orders?
__________________

__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 11:35 AM   #2
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Anyone know the history around what happened in VN with troops refusing orders?
I don't think we had to wait until Vietnam to discover that phenomenon, but no doubt we'll keep rediscovering it as long as there are leaders & followers.

Over 30,000 French infantry mutinied in the trenches in 1917 for nearly six weeks. The book "The Caine Mutiny" describes a fairly common "authoritarian CO" situation in America's WWII Navy, especially with the classic comment "Hundreds of other ships had to survive that typhoon, too, XO, but none of them had to mutiny to do it!". And many ordnance handlers mutinied, rightfully so, after the 1944 Port Chicago munitions explosion.

Vietnam wasn't just having trouble in the infantry. Racially-motivated activism in Nov 1972 kept the USS CONSTELLATION in port for a number of days. During LINEBACKER II in Dec 1972 the bombing strikes were centrally planned by SAC (in Omaha, NE, that hotbed of tactical warrior proficiency) instead of by the local bomber/fighter commands in Guam & Thailand. The rigid & predictable tactics were loved by the NVA while the harsh "no deviations, press on" discipline was hated by the B-52 crews. Similar problems occurred on the Navy side. There was no documented outright mutiny but a few acquaintances were involved in several headgear-related scatological discussions. One of my friends says this situation has essentially ruined his ability to place his trust in anyone, including his two ex-wives. Even today it doesn't take much to set him off.

A typical O-1 or O-2 has to think through the consequences of his reactions when a sergeant tells him what to do with his helmet. There's the possibility that the order was stupid to begin with, and if the officer put the sergeant on report then that poor lieutenant would have to recite his sorry officer's tactical skills all the way up the chain of command. An enlisted guy has to think through his response, too-- it's a lot easier to "misunderstand" the order and do whatever the heck you think should be done, or even to sloppily carry out an order in a slow, disorganized manner, than it is to square off and refuse it outright. There are times when more lives are saved by "bad hearing" or a lack of aggression than by foolhardy slavish obedience to orders. So there are a lot of options that accomplish everyone's goals (the order was "followed", nobody got hurt) yet still fall short of mutiny. I don't think that blatant mutiny will be very common in Iraq.

IMO the root causes of Vietnam mutiny situations were poor training-- at all levels, not just in the ranks or among the NCOs or in the officer's mess. Too many people were drafted for too short a time to get any real training, let alone experience, and there was too much of a "conscript mentality" for junior enlisted to feel that they were worth more than cannon fodder. The draft led directly to this sorry situation, and that's why the military doesn't want to go there again.
__________________

__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 11:53 AM   #3
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
IMO the root causes of Vietnam mutiny situations were poor training-- at all levels, not just in the ranks or among the NCOs or in the officer's mess. Too many people were drafted for too short a time to get any real training, let alone experience, and there was too much of a "conscript mentality" for junior enlisted to feel that they were worth more than cannon fodder. The draft led directly to this sorry situation, and that's why the military doesn't want to go there again.
Ding, ding, ding! That's exactly the reason I think that refusal of orders/mutiny is unlikely in Iraq.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 12:47 PM   #4
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Fred's current piece contains some speculation
Yes, it sure does........
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 12:58 PM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
Yes, it sure does........
Hey, Fred is Fred. I appreciate the humor in his stuff and I also like the outsider view. But its not worth getting real excited over, either way.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 02:57 PM   #6
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
OAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Central, Ohio, USA
Posts: 2,598
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

VN war went on a long time. I was there in the early part of it,mostly during the very large build up when we went from about 100K on the ground to the 500K height, and did not personally see anything close to mutiny. We did have several killing themselves, some reports of fragging, which has happened in the Iraq war, some reports of losses of Lts and some NCO's from "friendly fire" (alledged intentional type). I think most of the really bad stuff went on towards the end of the war when some units were stood down while other units were still required to be hot (Stand Down = waiting to leave, while hot = going out on the choppers and looking for Charlie). Some knew we were in the process of pulling out and could not understand why they had to fight while others were sitting around waiting to leave. IMHO we had very good officers by and large. However, we did have a very large reserve force numbers as time went by along with very large numbers of inductees through out the period. The system of micromanaging the war from Washington, ticket punching at some of the officer levels and very unequal spreading of the burden at the "grunt" level (college deferrments, perceived unequal deferrments being granted to some, coupled with extreme amounts of terrain that was off limits to attack again in MHO a receipe for disaster at the personnel management level to say the least. Frankly, I tend to be surprised we got through it as well as we did.

I guess I am giving reasons for whatever happened versus answering your question directly but, unless one is a military historian of the era and was in the position to see or record the situtations your question addresses, I doubt many can personally attest to these situations. I am sure there are some very fine history books out there by people of the era that were in a position to document responses to your question.

I do not think we will see much of this happening in Iraq/Afganistan mainly because, for the most part, this is an all volunteer, professionally trained force at the ground level. However, we have not seen the end game in this war yet. I just hope we have the guts to finish it and not pull out with the job undone. However, the longer it goes on the harder that will be.



__________________
Vietnam Veteran, CW4 USA, Retired 1979
OAG is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 03:01 PM   #7
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Army Guy
I do not think we will see much of this happening in Iraq/Afganistan mainly because, for the most part, this is an all volunteer, professionally trained force at the ground level. However, we have not seen the end game in this war yet. I just hope we have the guts to finish it and not pull out with the job undone. However, the longer it goes on the harder that will be.
Setting aside political squabbles and what I think of our current military involvements, are you enthused enough about staying in Iraq and "finishing it" that you would be willing to see a draft, if that's what it took? Not looking to bait or start a fight, just genuinely curious, given the universal disdain of a conscripted force by most military types.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 03:24 PM   #8
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 608
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Army Guy
... for the most part, this is an all volunteer, professionally trained force
That is not necessarily a good thing, since sometimes mutiny is a good thing,
as when it's mutiny (whether explicit or not) against orders (whether explicit
or not) to commit atrocities. Maybe a draftee is probably less likely to go along
with morally questionable actions ? NOT to say the draftee is more likely to be
a decent person, but they may bring an "ordinary citizen" viewpoint to the
proceedings, whereas the professional soldier is more indoctrinated with the
"follow orders (at all costs)" mentality.

That being said, the heroic helicopter pilot who intervened ay My Lai was a
professional/volunteer soldier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson%2C_Jr.)
__________________
JohnEyles is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 03:40 PM   #9
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Brewer--In my opinion there are many steps to take prior to starting a draft. If one is determined to be needed, we are in far worse shape than Iraq. As it stands the reserve and guard units are not activated indefinitely. They do their tour then are deactivated until deployed again.

I think prior to a draft you'd see these units activated without an end dates as well as massive enlistment and reenlistment bonuses.

I can't actually answer the question because the draft would be a last resort. The local issues of Iraq and Afganistan are not enough to warant a draft.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 03:53 PM   #10
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mesa
Posts: 3,588
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Army Guy
. . . I just hope we have the guts to finish it and not pull out with the job undone. . .
It's difficult for me to see what the "job" is or when it will be "finished" when the start of the war is an unjustified invasion that led to a civil war having nothing to do with us.

I just hope the supporters of this war eventually come to admit that it makes no sense, never made sense, and that bravado talk about "we won't cut and run" only leads to more senseless deaths and a growing number of terrorists that hate us.
__________________
sgeeeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 04:21 PM   #11
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Setting aside political squabbles
I guess this didn't last long.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 04:29 PM   #12
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 927
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
That being said, the heroic helicopter pilot who intervened ay My Lai was a
professional/volunteer soldier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson%2C_Jr.)
The word "hero" is thrown around a lot lately... but it's never been more richly deserved than in this case, IMHO.

As regards the "all volunteer force," do folks think that this is still a good definition of our force when so many units / individuals have been prevented from leaving when they're time was up and sent back for 4 and 5 tours?
__________________
Caroline is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 04:36 PM   #13
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mesa
Posts: 3,588
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
I guess this didn't last long.
What post do you think ended it? We might not agree even on that.
__________________
sgeeeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 04:52 PM   #14
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
It's difficult for me to see what the "job" is or when it will be "finished" when the start of the war is an unjustified invasion that led to a civil war having nothing to do with us.

I just hope the supporters of this war eventually come to admit that it makes no sense, never made sense, and that bravado talk about "we won't cut and run" only leads to more senseless deaths and a growing number of terrorists that hate us.
Let me just add..........as one who was elated when GWB was elected
gov. in Texas (I lived there then)............it is a hell of a mess! I don't have the answer and am glad I don't have to resolve it.

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-02-2006, 10:02 PM   #15
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 608
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
What post do you think ended it? We might not agree even on that.
Hey, it ain't over 'til Hitler gets mentioned (standard internet rules) ...
__________________
JohnEyles is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-03-2006, 07:05 AM   #16
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
I guess this didn't last long.
I sort of figured it was an unlikely think to ask for in the first place. But I am impressed that we got a half dozen posts in before it went to siht.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-03-2006, 07:53 AM   #17
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

I think it'll be "interesting" when the administration orders the military to invade Iran...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-03-2006, 08:05 AM   #18
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 926
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR
I think it'll be "interesting" when the administration orders the military to invade Iran...
Why would we ever need to invade? "Protecting freedom that we
love, raining fire from above!" Sorry. I am reading 'FLYBOYS' and got
a little carried away.

JG
__________________
Some of us have pretty stories, about good friends, good times and noodle salad.
Mr._johngalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-03-2006, 08:19 AM   #19
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR
I think it'll be "interesting" when the administration orders the military to invade Iran...
I think that is a logistical impossibility considering the commitments we have undertaken in Iraq and Afghan, considering the current size/status of the Merkin military.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination
Old 10-03-2006, 08:31 AM   #20
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Re: Q on military history: mutiny/insubordination

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
I think that is a logistical impossibility considering the commitments we have undertaken in Iraq and Afghan, considering the current size/status of the Merkin military.
My point exactly. The military knows it's a bad idea, but I'm not sure that would deter W & Co.... Hasn't yet...
__________________

__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Former Military Social Security credits - interesting Fireup2020 FIRE and Money 1 04-10-2007 10:24 PM
US Military Invades Pattaya... Lancelot Other topics 24 06-07-2006 09:49 PM
Space-A Travel/Temp. Military Logding mickeyd Other topics 8 03-27-2006 10:08 AM
Military "benefits" Nords Young Dreamers 26 01-23-2006 08:19 AM
Military pay (ECI) vs military retiree pay (CPI) Nords Other topics 0 11-05-2005 11:51 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:57 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.