Question for Teachers

[Mulligan]

Concerning schools, there is a new 4 point grading scheme (not referring to 4 pt. GPA) on regular classwork that is emerging. Some schools are using this in replacement of the 90% "A" 80% "B", etc. This being done to assist the failure rate of students. But IMHO it is a grading ruse that lowers the bar. For example if a student had four 100 pt assignments and received a 100 on 2 of them and did not do the other 2 assignments he would have a 50% "F". In the new system he would have two 4 pt grades and 2 zero pts. Average them together and presto, you have a 2 pt. "C" average and are passing! Yes, your failure rate is lower, but I would contend there is no more knowledge being gained. But it has the opposite effect on the brighter students. If he has three 89% grades and a 100%, he has an A. In the new system he has a B! I say this only as a warning that some reform minded schools aren't truly bringing about reform, even if the intent is good. Of course, whether grades even measure knowledge at all is another discussion for another day!

 

[spirit]

We have something called outcomes based learning

Yes, be careful out there Some of our school districts are using "outcomes" as the ONLY measure of learning. Outcomes are test scores. But as a teacher it is the "process" that has come with great effort and that defines how I teach. I know I am a good teacher by how my students meet success in their learning. It took me years to learn the "art" of my profession. It did not come out of a can nor did it come easy. I have a masters degree in education but have learned more from my students and colleagues over the years than anything out of a textbook. Now any beginning teacher can say they are meeting outcomes. It could come from textbooks, films, worksheets, fairy dust. As long as they are meeting outcomes everything is ok. But experienced teachers and wise parents know the difference. The devil is in the details.

 

[Mulligan]

Yes, be careful out there Some of our school districts are using "outcomes" as the ONLY measure of learning. Outcomes are test scores. But as a teacher it is the "process" that has come with great effort and that defines how I teach. I know I am a good teacher by how my students meet success in their learning. It took me years to learn the "art" of my profession. It did not come out of a can nor did it come easy. I have a masters degree in education but have learned more from my students and colleagues over the years than anything out of a textbook. Now any beginning teacher can say they are meeting outcomes. It could come from textbooks, films, worksheets, fairy dust. As long as they are meeting outcomes everything is ok. But experienced teachers and wise parents know the difference. The devil is in the details.

Ok Spirit, you better watch out by saying there is an actual "art" to teaching or you will wind up in the dinosaur club with me Glad to hear that word again even though I never hear it anymore. I always believed the "art" of teaching is what kept the "science" part glued together.

 

[clifp]

. If it means smoking dope while listening to The Doors on the iPod, probably not so good for their education.

I don't know that seems like a fun way (experiential education) of learning about the 1960s an important part of American history.

I continue to be impressed with young people knowledge of classic rock.

Also if it is the smart kids sitting around doing this does this make it better?

 

[GregLee]

Concerning schools, there is a new 4 point grading scheme (not referring to 4 pt. GPA) on regular classwork that is emerging.

That's interesting to me, since that's the system I used for most of the 40 years I taught college. I thought I invented it. It always made more sense to me than the traditional percent system.

Of course, whether grades even measure knowledge at all is another discussion for another day!

I never used grades as a measure of knowledge, only as an incentive for students to do the assigned work. The idea, so far as I was concerned, was to get students to learn, not to award credentials.

 

[Mulligan]

That's interesting to me, since that's the system I used for most of the 40 years I taught college. I thought I invented it. It always made more sense to me than the traditional percent system.

I never used grades as a measure of knowledge, only as an incentive for students to do the assigned work. The idea, so far as I was concerned, was to get students to learn, not to award credentials.

Maybe you were the first! Actually at the collegiate level, I see no problem with it at all because the students as a general rule, are there to learn and do their work. In fact, the college class I learned the most from was a professor who told us we would all get A's for the class so let's get down to the serious business of learning (was a very dynamic teacher). HS kids are another matter, though, I believe anyway. Once this was being piloted in a few classes, many students bragged they could do less, and get a better grade! All grading systems are schemes, I certainly don't know the perfect one.

 

[spirit]

The Art of what you do

About 20 years ago I was an experienced teacher who accepted an assignment in March to teach a gr 4 class that was in "crisis". I had about 10 years of teaching experience at the time and was considered a good teacher. That class was out of control, stayed out of control and the only thing I learned was that I had absolutely no control in that situation. In 3 months I was in crisis. A vetern teacher came in to observe and help me. I never forgot her kindness and still use her suggestions as part of my teacher's identity. From her I learned a little of the "art" of teaching (her words). She just retired this year from her principal's position. A great educator and a wonderful person. It does not matter what profession you have. If you only do a job you will never know joy and experience the art of what you do. Many years ago my mother who was an immigrant and who lost everything during World War 11 told me to get an education because noone could ever take that way from you. And no matter what the new way of thinking says noone can take the art out ofwhat I do. Thank you everyone for listening to this dinousaur

 

[Nords]

As if we have a vested interest in "punishing your child" just for the sake of it. Believe me we have way more better things to do than listen to angry parents justifying bad behavior. We also have kids and just want to help them grow straight and true the best way we can.

Thinking back on our daughter's years of school, she only had one truly bad teacher. Classic case of burnout. Another teacher wasn't good, but he'd retired on classroom duty and at least he didn't cause trouble.

However over that same timespan I've had many principals, alleged "guidance counselors", and other bureaucrats & administrators who were at best incompetent. One of them even explicitly suggested to our daughter that she come back next week to discuss a problem, only to inform her next week that the deadline was last week.

Once you've been lied to by these [-]professionals[/-] people, you no longer give them the benefit of the doubt.

College has been a steep prompt jump in dedication, inspiration, and professionalism.

 

[spirit]

You are absolutely right

Yes, there are problem people in all areas of life including my profession. I'm sorry you had to deal with them. The point I was trying to make was that sometimes parents try too hard to help their children and instead enable them to be a victim. It is a fine line and there is no textbook. And I am no expert, just trying to do the best I can with what I have. But sometimes we need to give our children the priviledge to make errors and to learn from them, as difficult as that might be. On another note. Ah yes, college years. I was still living at home then and did not make my mistakes until I was on my own and practicing living like a grownup

 

[spirit]

I forgot to give credit

I must state right now before I forget. I work for a school division that has incredibly fine people living in the community. Mostly farm, acreage, small towns just outside a major city. I live in the city but have commuted an hour each way because of the high standards of the parents, children and teachers in their schools. I would have been proud to send my own children there but I wanted to live near my parents who looked after my children when they were young. I know that I have been blessed to work with such dedicated professionals and have the honor of working with great kids in my classroom. Just my observation (which is becoming a serious topic in our professional development sessions) that our affluent society might not be preparing our children for a very different future than what we have hoped for.

 

[Rustic23]

We were in Hawaii in the early 80's. Our daughter was in Radford High School (I think that was the name). I became concerned by the type of math class they had her in. They told us. 'We have decided she will not go to college, and therefore she does not need algebra.' It did not take us long to let them know that weather she went to college or not was not there decision and she would take algebra! Needless to say the school administration did not like it, but as we were only going to be there another year they relented.

 

[kumquat]

We were in Hawaii in the early 80's. Our daughter was in Radford High School (I think that was the name). I became concerned by the type of math class they had her in. They told us. 'We have decided she will not go to college, and therefore she does not need algebra.' It did not take us long to let them know that [-]weather[/-] whether she went to college or not was not [-]there[/-] their decision and she would take algebra! Needless to say the school administration did not like it, but as we were only going to be there another year they relented.

I like your signature line. Since it's after 5:00 I don't think you'll mind that I "fixed it for ya".

 

[REWahoo]

Uh oh, the Grammar Police [-]is[/-] are raiding the forum...

 

[Rustic23]

To be exact, my DW is the English major in the house, and there are somethings spell check just won't catch.

 

[growing_older]

As if we have a vested interest in "punishing your child" just for the sake of it. Believe me we have way more better things to do than listen to angry parents justifying bad behavior.

Absolutely makes sense for good teachers, but in my experience there are plenty of bad ones for whom this is not true. Some of them are merely incompetent and have no business being in a classroom. A few are out right harmful, but so well entrenched that they seem to be impossible to dislodge. No ordinary commercial business would tolerate the levels of incompetence and occasionally worse that are routinely found in most public schools.

I try to stay out of school-pupil interactions as much as possible, but am not reluctant to swoop in when justified. Now that the term "helicopter parent" has become popular, I find educators are quick to label me and dismiss my complaints as unjustified before even listening because "helicopter parents" are assumed to be unreasonable and schools are always right.

 

[growing_older]

An incompetent High School math teacher (in his first year of teaching) only accepts problem solutions which follow the exact steps he outlines in class. Unfortunately he is hard to hear, doesn't take questions and most kids in the class do not know his official sequence of steps since they are not in the book. My child invented her own (absolutely mathematically correct) method of solving the problems and used it on tests. He marked them all wrong but gave her credit after she protested only if she provided separate formal proof of her method, despite it being obviously valid. Other kids on seeing she knew a way to get the answer started asking her for how to do the problems and we were called in for a behavior review that could have got her expelled based on his complaint that she was misbehaving in class. Her transgression was not following his exact steps in solving problems and showing other kids similar ways to solve problems outside his officially taught methods. If I were an administrator this would have been a significant red flag that this teacher could be in trouble. Instead we were given official warnings that if she continued to use methods not taught in class she would be flunked. If she continued to show other kids her methods she would be given detention.

Neither the teacher nor the administrator had any interest in hearing my defense of my child's behavior. Obviously getting angry wasn't going to help matters.

It's not always the child who is in the wrong.

 

[growing_older]

In the same school in a class my children were not in, a long term substitute was used for a math teacher for 7 months (nearly a full school year). She was often in over her head and didn't know her subject matter and did not have sufficient classroom management skills. She taught 5 classes of algebra for a total of 150 students and all 5 classes were in such trouble that she was issuing more detentions than all the other teachers in the school combined. Parents from all 5 classes started banding together and volunteered to take turns teaching her classes for her. One month into the school year she issued a blanket detention for every student in every one of her classes. Fifty parents show up at school to serve detention in support of their students. Letter writing campaigns are conducted to the school board and central office. Principal fields multiple parent complaints daily. They organized so at least two parents complain every day.

Despite all this, this teacher was retained for the full 7 months with no assistance or improvements to her teaching. Students who could drop the class generally did so. A few withdrew entirely and went to private schools.

An entire 5 classes of students (and their parents) were not the problem in this situation.

 

[growing_older]

In an elementary school, my child's teacher selects one student each year as the class scapegoat. Luckily my child was not selected. This unlucky child is routinely berated by the teacher when she is in a bad mood. After one particularly ugly incident where the teacher dumped the child's backpack contents on the floor while yelling how stupid he was, my child and a few friends got up the courage to see the principal and tell their parents. The parents quickly also came to see the principal. The principal's response was that he had spoken to the teacher and the behavior would stop. Astonishingly, he acknowledged it had been a problem in the past but since the teacher was near retirement they would handle the situation by "keeping an eye on her"

Personally, I think this conduct deserves immediate removal from the classroom. It seems possibly criminal.

We later confirmed similar incidents in previous classes for the last few years. As far as we know, no disciplinary action was ever taken against this teacher.

It's not always the "helicopter" parents or the children who are the problems. I have lots more examples like this just from my own children's limited school experiences. I'm sure there are many others that other people have experienced.

 

[GregLee]

An incompetent High School math teacher (in his first year of teaching) only accepts problem solutions which follow the exact steps he outlines in class. Unfortunately he is hard to hear, doesn't take questions and most kids in the class do not know his official sequence of steps since they are not in the book. My child invented her own (absolutely mathematically correct) method of solving the problems and used it on tests. He marked them all wrong but gave her credit after she protested only if she provided separate formal proof of her method, despite it being obviously valid. ...

I don't know anything about high school teaching, but this sounds like the teacher who (I was told by a friend) was the most effective teacher in a department of philosophy somewhere in southern Ohio (I forget the college -- perhaps in Cincinnati?). He was such a dope, that in class his students had to keep correcting his confusions. They learned much more than students in classes taught by more competent instructors. Sounds like your kid did great.

 

[growing_older]

I had a calculus teacher who was brilliantly capable and made a practice to deliberately introduce a mistake into lecture a couple of times a week. It kept us alert and looking for the mistake to challenge him. If he ever did make an actual mistake we were keen to catch that and he had a self checking system of an entire class wanting to validate everything he said. Needless to say, his results were excellent.

I think it is a big difference when a competent (excellent even) teacher uses a deliberate stratagem, compared to a teacher who is so bad that his sheer incompetence sometimes motivates students to just do it themselves. If that really is an effective teaching method, then lets get rid of all the teachers we currently have and replace them with random lowest possible wage people who know nothing about the subjects and students can

learned much more than students in classes taught by more competent instructors.

 

[DblDoc]

Saw this last night: Number of the Week: U.S. Teachers’ Hours Among World’s Longest - Real Time Economics - WSJ

Among 27 member nations tracked by the OECD, U.S. primary-school educators spent 1,097 hours a year teaching despite only spending 36 weeks a year in the classroom — among the lowest among the countries tracked. That was more than 100 hours more than New Zealand, in second place at 985 hours, despite students in that country going to school for 39 weeks. The OECD average is 786 hours.

Yet the US is "average" in education ranking per the same OECD: AFP: US falls to average in education ranking

The three-yearly OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) report, which compares the knowledge and skills of 15-year-olds in 70 countries around the world, ranked the United States 14th out of 34 OECD countries for reading skills, 17th for science and a below-average 25th for mathematics.

Something is clearly broken in our education system.

DD

 

[Leonidas]

Something is clearly broken in our education system.

I'm not sure some of these comparisons between countries work all that well. Most especially when they are with much smaller nations with much more homogeneous populations. Like Finland, with a similar population to my metro area, but they're 98% Finnish compared to the 100 or so different nationalities/languages represented in my local school population.

Some critics also point out that poverty plays a huge role in this, and if you took the scores of US schools with similar poverty rates to other nations, that the US schools consistently score better on the PISA.

 

[Nords]

I'm not sure some of these comparisons between countries work all that well.

Perhaps the best comparisons of a country's education system are the numbers of citizens of other countries trying to get into that country's colleges.

 

[GregLee]

Perhaps the best comparisons of a country's education system are the numbers of citizens of other countries trying to get into that country's colleges.

I don't think so. The University of Hawaii graduate programs have in the past had few students who grew up in Hawaii and many from Japan, Thailand, China, Korea, Singapore. I think we'd prefer our education system work well for our own, as well as attracting applications from elsewhere.

 

[DblDoc]

I'm not sure some of these comparisons between countries work all that well. Most especially when they are with much smaller nations with much more homogeneous populations. Like Finland, with a similar population to my metro area, but they're 98% Finnish compared to the 100 or so different nationalities/languages represented in my local school population.

Some critics also point out that poverty plays a huge role in this, and if you took the scores of US schools with similar poverty rates to other nations, that the US schools consistently score better on the PISA.

I'm sure the reasons are multifactorial and include those issues you raised. The outcome is what matters though. We compete on a world stage and we are being out-educated.

DD