Questions for AC replacement

[jjquantz]

Just because someone is religious doesn't mean that he does not want to maximize his profits. Maybe it simply means that their work will be good, if only overpriced.

I have no problem with someone trying to make a good profit, but this atheist really gets hung up on the "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" thing. You can't convince me that this business behavior fits that paradigm. I would have had no problem with them saying that $10,200 was there best price or for them to have originally bid $8200. But I just can't see the behavior this company displayed as Biblically inspired.

 

[NW-Bound]

Just joking. I am an agnostic, and do not think business and religion should mix.

 

[bUU]

Option 2: 3 ton two stage AC with 80,000 BTU two stage furnace with variable speed blower - $7700. The down side is that it would be 2 weeks before the install.

Okay, so that makes me feel much better about the estimate I mentioned above - we're beginning to see a little price advantage of having moved this far south. Of course, we'll pay for that advantage with higher costs for energy since we'll need to run these suckers much more than you will in Virginia.

 

[target2019]

The single biggest problem I had when replacing both my furnace and my AC (sequentially) was that contractors refused to do a Manual J calculation to determine the right size. Instead they wanted to base it off the existing equipment or use a fudge factor based on square feet and install a much too large unit.

This is a big deal because a furnace that is too big cycles too often and does not maintain an even temperature, and is not as efficient as a properly sized one. An AC too large does not properly dehumidify the air , does not hold an even temperature and wastes energy.

I did my own calculations (on-line calculator) and had to sign a waiver basically stating I'd not taken their recommendations. I could not be happier. My two stage gas furnace keeps the house warm on subzero days on the 35,000 btu stage, only kicking into the 70,000 btu stage when switching from night time to daytime temperature. Similarly, the two ton AC works great and really cuts the humidity.

I found huge variation in prices for the same equipment between quotes.

Agree you'll need an inside coil and maybe a chimney liner.

Do you still have the link to the on-line calculator you used? Thanks.

 

[eytonxav]

I am not sure where it came from, but in the back of my mind, I seem to recall hearing complaints about Costco's HVAC services. I think jjq made a good decision.

 

[REWahoo]

I'm thinking about complaining to Costco - I can see where a number of people might not get multiple bids because they would assume that, if Costco partners with them, then the price must be good.

I agree that you need to contact Costco to let them know how unhappy you are with their 'partner'.

 

[travelover]

Do you still have the link to the on-line calculator you used? Thanks.

Sorry, I went back to my bookmarks and found a bunch of dead links. Google "Manual J heat calculator". The free ones are not as comprehensive as a professional model, but will get you close.

 

[jjquantz]

Update - Cool air restored

AC was installed yesterday. Everything went smoothly and there were no unpleasant surprises for me (the installers apparently had a couple of minor ones.). Thanks to everyone for the input. I really feel like I came out of this with a quality system, properly sized, properly installed, at a reasonable price.

 

[Bamaman]

This has been an interesting posting. You can go online and see the cost of a/c components. After the total installed prices are quoted, it's obvious that HVAC is a high markup business.


What's not been said is that many of the really good HVAC contractors in big cities have sold out to major HVAC manufacturers. For example, Atlanta has very few independent large HVAC contractors. This means they're quoting you only one brand of HVAC equipment--often at very inflated or expensive prices.


I am serviced by a father/son HVAC company, and they're downright inexpensive due to having low overhead. When one of my heat pump systems goes out, they'll research the different brands to see what's the most cost effective option for me. Chances are I'll be switching over to a heat pump/natural hybrid system--efficient in our climate.

 

[John Galt III]

This has been an interesting posting. You can go online and see the cost of a/c components. After the total installed prices are quoted, it's obvious that HVAC is a high markup business.


What's not been said is that many of the really good HVAC contractors in big cities have sold out to major HVAC manufacturers. For example, Atlanta has very few independent large HVAC contractors. This means they're quoting you only one brand of HVAC equipment--often at very inflated or expensive prices.


I am serviced by a father/son HVAC company, and they're downright inexpensive due to having low overhead. When one of my heat pump systems goes out, they'll research the different brands to see what's the most cost effective option for me. Chances are I'll be switching over to a heat pump/natural hybrid system--efficient in our climate.

Yes, interesting and informative thread! I'm wondering how much I'll end up paying in eastern Pa to replace my Trane XE1000 heat pump/ac unit. If the neighbors are any indication, I'll be paying about $5,000 for the hp/ac unit and the inside coil, including installation. So that's $2,000 in parts and...ummmm.... $3,000 in labor. For about 6 hours..... It's the $3,000 in labor that blows my mind. I'll have to keep my nose to the grindstone and find out what the insiders do in this situation. Can't be everyone here in my area is paying three grand for hp installation.

 

[bUU]

It's not just the labor, though. Parts don't cost the same everywhere because the carrying costs are different. In some extreme examples, carrying costs represent 50% of the cost of the product, so even modest regional variances in carrying costs can be substantial. In the northeast warehouse costs are higher so that will skew the carrying costs associated with product purchased in the northeast.

 

[frank]

a lot of areas have rebates for high efficiency heating and air. I wonder if the high prices are parially due to the rebates?

 

[bUU]

Good point. One of the complaints about government rebates is that they sometimes do nothing more than raise the ceiling on pricing helping the seller more than the buyer.

 

[samclem]

So that's $2,000 in parts and...ummmm.... $3,000 in labor. For about 6 hours..... It's the $3,000 in labor that blows my mind.

And the labor is not that difficult, if everything is easily accessible. I've got a simple setup (evap coil in abasement room with good access, outside compressor/outside unit at grade level just outside) and when my unit crumps out I'll definitely be looking for an HVAC tech who wants to make a few hundred dollars on a side job to come out and hook up the refrigerant lines and check out the operation of the units after I get everything else in place and hooked up.

 

[John Galt III]

A half hour on the web resulted in my finding no rebates/discounts/tax breaks for heat pump in 2015, in Pa. One of my neighbors scored bigtime a few years ago with the $1,500 tax credit on a new heat pump. It was a Trane. List price was $6,000. She then got several *discounts* (don't know what exactly) to get it down to $4,000. Then an additional $400 off for paying cash. Now down to $3,600. Then the $1,500 tax credit brings it down to $2,100. Not bad. And this was for the outside unit and the inside coil. She was not planning on replacing the inside coil, but the deal was too attractive to resist. I guess she is a good negotiator, too.

 

[John Galt III]

And the labor is not that difficult, if everything is easily accessible. I've got a simple setup (evap coil in abasement room with good access, outside compressor/outside unit at grade level just outside) and when my unit crumps out I'll definitely be looking for an HVAC tech who wants to make a few hundred dollars on a side job to come out and hook up the refrigerant lines and check out the operation of the units after I get everything else in place and hooked up.

My hp is on a slab at ground level. Inside unit at ground level also, copper lines just go right through the wall. I keep hearing that the installation is the most important thing in making the unit last a long time. So I'd be wary of hiring an independent tech guy unless I was sure he was completely competent. My first HP (Trane) that came with the house new, lasted 10 years before compressor went out. Next one, a newer model Trane, has now lasted 19 years and I have not had anything done to it. I just clean the leaves out of it every few years, and keep the snow away from it in Winter. Apparently the company that installed my current HP did it right. And I paid only about $1,200. Of course that was 19 years ago. Outside unit only. My guess on why installation is so important would be keeping contaminants out of freon, keeping proper pressures on various parts of system, doing things in proper order, etc. If I get a new HP I'd let the same company do the install since they did it right before. But I'll definitely be trying to get the price down somehow. Rebates, discounts, cash, whatever.

 

[bUU]

We'll almost surely be replacing our units early because of poor installation along with builders' typical economizing on quality of the physical units. Our home inspector cited several issues with the installation, some of which we had resolved (at least temporarily) before we closed and other were factored into the negotiations. There are apparently so many ways to cut corners, making the installation less onerous but degrading the finished product. Sigh.

 

[Ready]

My HVAC guy came out last night to look at my unit. The compressor works fine, but it wasn't getting cold. He added a couple of pounds of freon for $150, and it started working great again. Only problem is when he opened up the unit, there was so much corrosion that the grate was literally flaking apart just from touching it.

A new unit will cost $2,400, plus $500 to replace the coils above the HVAC. Since the current unit seems to be working now, I'm inclined to just wait until it completely dies and then replace it with a new one.

The units I'm looking at are made by Trane, Rheem and American Standard. All made in the USA, all right about the same price for their entry level SEER 14 models. Consumer reports says the reliability on all of these units is pretty close, so it probably doesn't matter which one I go with.

 

[samclem]

My HVAC guy came out last night to look at my unit. The compressor works fine, but it wasn't getting cold. He added a couple of pounds of freon for $150, and it started working great again. Only problem is when he opened up the unit, there was so much corrosion that the grate was literally flaking apart just from touching it.

A new unit will cost $2,400, plus $500 to replace the coils above the HVAC. Since the current unit seems to be working now, I'm inclined to just wait until it completely dies and then replace it with a new one.

If the units are older and near the end of their expected service life in for your area, and if you saw the corrosion yourself, you might want to start shopping for a replacement. The refrigerant left the system somehow, and if it stops cooling again within the year it means you've got a serious problem and it's probably not economical to do repairs on an older unit with corrosion issues. It'll be cheaper and faster to get this done in the fall than to wait until it breaks in the summer.
The evaporator coil normally lasts a lot longer than the outside unit, and often don't need to be replaced unless the refrigerant type is changed.

 

[John Galt III]

My HVAC guy came out last night to look at my unit. The compressor works fine, but it wasn't getting cold. He added a couple of pounds of freon for $150, and it started working great again. Only problem is when he opened up the unit, there was so much corrosion that the grate was literally flaking apart just from touching it.

A new unit will cost $2,400, plus $500 to replace the coils above the HVAC. Since the current unit seems to be working now, I'm inclined to just wait until it completely dies and then replace it with a new one.

The units I'm looking at are made by Trane, Rheem and American Standard. All made in the USA, all right about the same price for their entry level SEER 14 models. Consumer reports says the reliability on all of these units is pretty close, so it probably doesn't matter which one I go with.

Ready, Do those prices include labor for installation? New outdoor unit plus inside coils is about $5,000 here in Pa. For a Trane heat pump/ac. Wonder why it's so much less expensive in southern Ca. Are you getting any rebates/tax credits, discounts, etc?

 

[ArkTinkerer]

I've taken to ordering units from the internet and having them drop shipped to the house--whether my home or a rental unit.

When an AC gives me trouble and the tech (I've used the same one man business for years) says its time to replace I have him pump it out and disconnect. I haul off the old unit for scrap, place the drop shipped unit, and have him do the hookups. WAY cheaper than any of the services that come out and do it all for you with a unit they MAY have in stock. Takes about a week to get the new unit delivered.

Also did one house with a mini-split I ordered online. Did the rough in myself and had the AC guy do the hookup and charge. Did have a small leak that shut the unit down after the first year but since then its been great. Renters loved the reduced cost of operation and two zone control.

 

[samclem]

When an AC gives me trouble and the tech (I've used the same one man business for years) says its time to replace I have him pump it out and disconnect. I haul off the old unit for scrap, place the drop shipped unit, and have him do the hookups. WAY cheaper than any of the services that come out and do it all for you with a unit they MAY have in stock. Takes about a week to get the new unit delivered.

This is what I plan to do. The hard part is finding someone to do the pump-out of the old unit and hookup of the refrigerant lines. I suppose they have to be accredited in some way for the warranty to be valid (it was that way for my gas furnace--I did the same thing). And, it helps to have a small window unit or portable unit to keep some areas of the house comfortable while waiting for the parts to come in and to do the installation. You end up with the equipment you want at the right price, an installation you can trust (because you did it yourself). De-linking the installation from the equipment sale also removes conflicts of interest.

 

[Ready]

Ready, Do those prices include labor for installation? New outdoor unit plus inside coils is about $5,000 here in Pa. For a Trane heat pump/ac. Wonder why it's so much less expensive in southern Ca. Are you getting any rebates/tax credits, discounts, etc?

We don't need the heat pump a/c here. I think those do cost more. If you look up the price of my unit at some online resellers, a 4-ton 14 SEER unit from Rheem or American Standard costs $1,800. My HVAC guy is charging me $2,400, so I guess the $600 is labor. The cooling coil is extra, about $500.

No rebates or tax credits that I'm aware of.

 

[Ready]

If the units are older and near the end of their expected service life in for your area, and if you saw the corrosion yourself, you might want to start shopping for a replacement. The refrigerant left the system somehow, and if it stops cooling again within the year it means you've got a serious problem and it's probably not economical to do repairs on an older unit with corrosion issues. It'll be cheaper and faster to get this done in the fall than to wait until it breaks in the summer.
The evaporator coil normally lasts a lot longer than the outside unit, and often don't need to be replaced unless the refrigerant type is changed.

Agreed. I've never serviced either unit, so I figure if I can extend the life just a bit longer by adding $150 worth of freon, it's worth it. But I definitely won't spend any more money on these units. I'm not that concerned about the unit breaking in the summer, because by the beach where I live it rarely exceeds about 76 degrees in the summer, and the evenings are usually about 68. It does get a bit warm in the house, but not so bad that I would suffer if I had to wait a week or two for a replacement unit. Many homes in my neighborhood don't even have a/c, although there about ten days per year where it's pretty brutal without it.