Rationalization

[Midpack]

Though they have NO history whatsoever of ever cheating over many, many years, I am part of a team who seems to be considering cheating in an upcoming very prestigious event with a long, rich history (not easy to skip).

The rule in question was specifically written to level the playing field (between low and high $ teams), but inadvertently has exactly the opposite effect – it gives a considerable advantage to teams who are willing to spend big technology $ to buy an advantage. The intent of the rule seems to be the rationale for my team thinking about deliberately breaking said rule, otherwise they’d never contemplate cheating. The chances of getting caught are nil, strictly on an honor system. It’s well known that other low budget teams have/will cheat in the same way, have for years.

The right answer is of course to appeal to the organizers to fix the rules, and I am certain they will eventually. But it will take years out of pure bureaucratic inertia (they'd have to acknowledge their mistake). The good old boys in are trying to formulate rules brought on by new technology, an area where they're blissfully ignorant, but still "in charge." In the meantime, low budget teams are forced to accept a significant disadvantage or cheat.

I won’t bother with the details, but trust me the characterization above is accurate - there are no "loopholes."

I know the right “answer” as there is no question to begin with. We either pony up big $ for no good reason, or enter knowing we can’t possibly be competitive.

Just venting because it really sucks, and maybe cathartic? First world problems, money always buys advantages (silly rabbit), integrity vs winning (the oldest dilemma in sport), life’s not fair, blah, blah, blah…

 

[Texas Proud]

Is the spending of big bucks linear Is there NO skill involved

As an example, a top golfer could beat me with very old, very cheap equipment even if I had the most expensive, newest, most expensive equipment available... that means there is skill.... however, he could not beat a really good amateur....


Now, a drag race is where money can buy a win... even the leading drag racer could not win if he had an old cheap car with little power and I had a nice new powerful car.... then the equipment means much more than the skill level...


So, I feel for you.... but I do not know if I would spend $$$s just to win something when I would know that I was cheating.... if I really enjoyed doing it I would still do it... if it really bothered me, I would just not do it....

 

[Midpack]

Is the spending of big bucks linear Is there NO skill involved

Not sure how to answer the 'linear' question. The options in this case are no tech (no chance), low tech (where it would take extraordinary skill to overcome...) and high tech. High tech is multiples more costly, and the high dollar teams will also have high skills, after all they spare no expense and attract the best talent without having to cheat in any way.

Maybe my team will do the right thing in the end, just do our best with our low tech options knowing we can't be competitive, fingers crossed. Sad situation, dropping out is really undesirable, kinda cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[ERD50]

Is it possible to stick to the rules, and make it very public that you are not breaking any rules?

That might bring attention to the issue, and shame (or scare) those breaking the rules into complying (and for the rule makers to fix things)?

-ERD50

 

[jerome len]

A couple of thoughts. .......I try to lead a personal and business life that is "open, honest and transparent" ....if that is the goal how should the team proceed?
Next......communication......we teach 4 levels of communication. 1. Talk at.....that's what you do to a puppy or little kid. 2. Talk to......that what the HR department does when telling about company benefits.....no negotiations. 3. Commuication.....that when we hear each other clearly BUT ..... don't understand all the consequenses 4. understanding.....that's when communication has led to a common understanding.

It sounds like the program has been communicated but maybe there isn't a common understanding of how the program benefits/penalizes some unfairly. That's often true in business because we look at everything from our point of view.....not neccessarily fair to all. Until it's changed? Sometimes it's tough to be open, honest and transparent.

Good luck on how you handle this until everyone has a fair, common understanding.

 

[frayne]

What is the activity ?

 

[imoldernu]

Frustration with this type of dilemma only grows as we age. Kind of like being a single citizen in a large nation. Knowing what is the correct and best thing for your nation to do, but only having one vote. Watching those with less knowledge, and questionable morality, work to their own interest without regard to the greater good.
No answer... venting and finding kindred spirits is the only way I've found to ease the angst.

Sometime miracles happen...

 

[FUEGO]

How about skipping the cheating then asking for the rule to be strictly enforced? Expose the cheating teams so they get disqualified. Otherwise what kind of a competition is it?

 

[bld999]

So your team can buy a win, or look like "fools" and lose if you leave cheating out of the tool set.
If me, I would protest the rule and the incumbent approach, running the risk of being shunned. My protest would include a detailed and well reasoned written statement including a proposal to square up the mess. If I got kicked out, I would take my enthusiasm and time elsewhere.
I spent my career as a builder and got paid to dance to the tune of codes and public policy as it affected my work. In retirement, absent a significant payoff, I usu. choose to avoid broken, rules based scenarios when optional.

 

[Texas Proud]

I do not understand how another team can spend big money without breaking the rules.... and you cannot...

Is it that all teams are supposed to be 'cheap' and some say 'screw it, I want a win' If so, then spending the money is no big deal... if most people ignore the rule and it is not enforced..... then it is not a rule....

So, what is the problem You do not want to cheat or you do not want to spend the money


Also, what is preventing someone else from spending more money than you spend to get the win... without my info we just do not know what you are talking about.....

 

[W2R]

I am so happy to be retired, and not have to worry about issues like this any more.

I pretty much just do what I want. In your situation, I'd just smile and say "adios" to the group/team/whatever that is doing what you don't want them to do. And then, I'd go off and do something else that was more fun/relaxing. Life is grand, and too short to spend time like this IMO.

 

[harley]

Too vague to understand what you're talking about, but in general I tend to ignore bad rules/laws. I take responsibility if I get caught. But I tend to follow my own definition of fair, as opposed to respecting their authoritah!

 

[Bestwifeever]

....I am part of a team who seems to be considering cheating in an upcoming very prestigious event with a long, rich history (not easy to skip).

....The chances of getting caught are nil, strictly on an honor system. It’s well known that other low budget teams have/will cheat in the same way, have for years.

The right answer is of course to appeal to the organizers to fix the rules, and I am certain they will eventually. But it will take years out of pure bureaucratic inertia (they'd have to acknowledge their mistake). The good old boys in are trying to formulate rules brought on by new technology, an area where they're blissfully ignorant, but still "in charge." In the meantime, low budget teams are forced to accept a significant disadvantage or cheat.

I think the right answer is to listen to the little voice within you and to walk away from the team if it decides to cheat.

I won’t bother with the details, but trust me the characterization above is accurate - there are no "loopholes."
...

The description is too vague to really compare with other activities. Details might be helpful. Digital football deflation in the Superbowl?

 

[skipro33]

If I'm gonna play, it's by the rules. If someone else has an advantage for any reason that I can not attain, then I resign from the game and let the powers-that-be know exactly and without any uncertainty, exactly why I'm dropping out. Enough drop and I bet the rule gets updated pretty quick.

 

[ERD50]

Too vague to understand what you're talking about, but in general I tend to ignore bad rules/laws. I take responsibility if I get caught. But I tend to follow my own definition of fair, as opposed to respecting their authoritah!

Yes, and I agree with you, until we get to the point that this is a competition. Others are getting hurt by rule breakers. 'Victim-less' crime? - that's different (IMO).

I think the right answer is to listen to the little voice within you and to walk away from the team if it decides to cheat.
...

To each their own, but I couldn't feel good about 'winning' if it involved cheating.

-ERD50

 

[Tom52]

If it is obvious to all that the team that wins the competition has "cheated" to claim victory what is the attraction of the event? Why bother. I would be interested to know what this event is and then maybe it would make some sense why anyone would want participate.

 

[RunningBum]

Way too vague. Is this event something where it is important to win, or is just competing at your own level just as fun? I can and have run marathons in races with the world's best. But if I tried to put together a team of people like me and play volleyball against the US Olympic team it would be no fun at all. What is this event like?

 

[imoldernu]

It gets worse when you get older, and have time to see the injustices that surround us. As a citizen, you have but one vote on how our country is run, and if everything that our elected officials do, is to your satisfaction, then you are a fortunate person.
Dealing with reality isn't always easy, but paraphrasing:

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference."

 

[zerman]

Sad situation, but I am not going to rationalize cheating. My own integrity is worth more than whatever could be gained by "winning" this race to the bottom. If the activity is one you value, then consider campaigning against the rules that incentivize cheating behavior. There are probably entrenched power blocks who will be upset by you calling attention to the problem, but that's better than skulking about and cheating just because everybody's doing it.

 

[sengsational]

I'm not the least bit competitive, so I wouldn't have a problem simply enjoying the "doing" and to hell with the "done".

But I can imagine a situation where the "doing" would be more fun and interesting if a rule was bent a bit, lol!

For instance, there was one of those Internet polls where you could vote multiple times, and that was within the rules, but it was tedious. Nothing too much at stake except for bragging rights for who had the best taproom. But someone asked me to spend time voting, but I wrote some code and gave it out to other like-minded folks and whammo! Our total shot up! But then the competition must have also automated, and it was neck and neck at the end. It didn't matter to me who won (in fact, I can't remember if we came out on top or not), the fun was in the process.

 

[candrew]

Are there high-ranking FIFA officials involved?

 

[Gumby]

It's hard to make any useful comments without specifics, but let me relate the following anecdotes for whatever they might be worth.

1. Many, many years ago, I was a Navy submariner. My first submarine was essentially a target. We would periodically conduct joint exercises with surface ships and aircraft, during which we would be told to cruise at a certain depth, course and speed. The ships and planes would attempt to find us. We always cheated by not staying within those parameters.

In our view, the Soviets weren't going to play by any rules, so why should we? If the surface ships and planes were good enough, they would find us, and if push came to shove, they would find Soviet subs too. If they couldn't find us, they had better improve their game, and quick.

It was also valuable for our own training. Submarines will never win a stand-up fight with anyone. On a sub, you never get wounded; if they hit you, you die. The only way to survive is to be more clever than everyone else and hit them when they don't see you coming. To that end, it is important to teach submariners to think outside the box. Following the "rules" could get you killed. Our unofficial motto was "if you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

2. If you ever watched the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, you probably recall the Kobayashi Maru simulator scenario, which is a test given to the young Starfleet officers to test their mettle. The test is a no-win situation - no matter what course of action is taken, the ship and its crew is lost. Ensign Saavik takes the test and, as designed, fails. For a substantial part of the remaining movie, she pesters Captain Kirk about his experience with the scenario, in which he reportedly succeeded where everyone else failed. Eventually he reveals that, prior to taking the test, he secretly reprogrammed the computer so that he could win. (Who would you want to captain your starship in a fight?)

 

[harley]

If I'm gonna play, it's by the rules. If someone else has an advantage for any reason that I can not attain, then I resign from the game and let the powers-that-be know exactly and without any uncertainty, exactly why I'm dropping out. Enough drop and I bet the rule gets updated pretty quick.

This is pretty much how I feel about it too. In a competition, I play by the rules, and if it's not fair I don't play. Even though I'm not that competitive and don't care much about winning or losing, I play for fun and if it's not fair it's not fun.

It gets worse when you get older, and have time to see the injustices that surround us. As a citizen, you have but one vote on how our country is run, and if everything that our elected officials do, is to your satisfaction, then you are a fortunate person.
Dealing with reality isn't always easy, but paraphrasing:

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference."

Lord, Grant me the serenity to
accept the things I cannot change,
Courage, to change the things I can, and
Wisdom to hide the bodies of those people
I had to kill because they pissed me off.

 

[Calico]

This is pretty much how I feel about it too. In a competition, I play by the rules, and if it's not fair I don't play. Even though I'm not that competitive and don't care much about winning or losing, I play for fun and if it's not fair it's not fun.

+100


Lord, Grant me the serenity to
accept the things I cannot change,
Courage, to change the things I can, and
Wisdom to hide the bodies of those people
I had to kill because they pissed me off.

Finally a version of the serenity prayer that works for me!

 

[Midpack]

Sorry but getting really specific won't help most members. Hopefully this narrow view will help:

• There's a rule against using outside assistance (technology) in the sport. Technology has revolutionized aspects of the sport, no stopping it. The elite dinosaurs who write the rules, really don't begin to grasp the technology, it's incomprehensible magic to them. Well meaning, but they've actually made outside assistance legal to those willing to buy expensive software vs buying a relatively inexpensive online subscription service that performs the same function, which is illegal.
• All competitors are allowed to download weather forecasts. But further analysis from weather is where the advantage comes in.
• There's a subscription service for $79 for 3 months, that does the highly complex analysis online, but it's illegal because the analysis is from the outside (online).
• You can also buy a functionally similar software program for $1200 from an entirely different provider that uses the same weather forecast downloads and very similar algorithms on a laptop to provide the same resulting analysis. That is legal because the analysis is done "locally," on a competitors laptop.
• Performing the analysis manually would be impossible for 99.99735% of competitors.

The good old boys who make the rules are myopically fixated on the concept of "outside assistance," without any understanding of how their ill advised rule language plays out. I am sure they've been told in private they've messed up, but it'll be fixed when some other seemingly unrelated event gives them a reason to rewrite the rule (and incidentally correct their mistake), and not until then.

In the meantime, many low budget teams justify using the illegal subscription service because they understand the rule's intent. Again, just trust me, it would be virtually impossible to get caught cheating by using the relatively inexpensive subscription services.

Yes it would be easy to not compete, but it's not a local bowling league. It's an historically significant event, run annually for well over a hundred years, with hundreds of teams, thousands of competitors from all over the country/world.

Just venting, I know what we have to do, just sucks...