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Old 05-28-2015, 09:54 AM   #1
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Rationalization

Though they have NO history whatsoever of ever cheating over many, many years, I am part of a team who seems to be considering cheating in an upcoming very prestigious event with a long, rich history (not easy to skip).

The rule in question was specifically written to level the playing field (between low and high $ teams), but inadvertently has exactly the opposite effect – it gives a considerable advantage to teams who are willing to spend big technology $ to buy an advantage. The intent of the rule seems to be the rationale for my team thinking about deliberately breaking said rule, otherwise they’d never contemplate cheating. The chances of getting caught are nil, strictly on an honor system. It’s well known that other low budget teams have/will cheat in the same way, have for years.

The right answer is of course to appeal to the organizers to fix the rules, and I am certain they will eventually. But it will take years out of pure bureaucratic inertia (they'd have to acknowledge their mistake). The good old boys in are trying to formulate rules brought on by new technology, an area where they're blissfully ignorant, but still "in charge." In the meantime, low budget teams are forced to accept a significant disadvantage or cheat.

I won’t bother with the details, but trust me the characterization above is accurate - there are no "loopholes."

I know the right “answer” as there is no question to begin with. We either pony up big $ for no good reason, or enter knowing we can’t possibly be competitive.

Just venting because it really sucks, and maybe cathartic? First world problems, money always buys advantages (silly rabbit), integrity vs winning (the oldest dilemma in sport), life’s not fair, blah, blah, blah…
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:12 AM   #2
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Is the spending of big bucks linear Is there NO skill involved

As an example, a top golfer could beat me with very old, very cheap equipment even if I had the most expensive, newest, most expensive equipment available... that means there is skill.... however, he could not beat a really good amateur....


Now, a drag race is where money can buy a win... even the leading drag racer could not win if he had an old cheap car with little power and I had a nice new powerful car.... then the equipment means much more than the skill level...


So, I feel for you.... but I do not know if I would spend $$$s just to win something when I would know that I was cheating.... if I really enjoyed doing it I would still do it... if it really bothered me, I would just not do it....
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:16 AM   #3
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Is the spending of big bucks linear Is there NO skill involved
Not sure how to answer the 'linear' question. The options in this case are no tech (no chance), low tech (where it would take extraordinary skill to overcome...) and high tech. High tech is multiples more costly, and the high dollar teams will also have high skills, after all they spare no expense and attract the best talent without having to cheat in any way.

Maybe my team will do the right thing in the end, just do our best with our low tech options knowing we can't be competitive, fingers crossed. Sad situation, dropping out is really undesirable, kinda cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:23 AM   #4
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Is it possible to stick to the rules, and make it very public that you are not breaking any rules?

That might bring attention to the issue, and shame (or scare) those breaking the rules into complying (and for the rule makers to fix things)?

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Old 05-28-2015, 11:46 AM   #5
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A couple of thoughts. .......I try to lead a personal and business life that is "open, honest and transparent" ....if that is the goal how should the team proceed?
Next......communication......we teach 4 levels of communication. 1. Talk at.....that's what you do to a puppy or little kid. 2. Talk to......that what the HR department does when telling about company benefits.....no negotiations. 3. Commuication.....that when we hear each other clearly BUT ..... don't understand all the consequenses 4. understanding.....that's when communication has led to a common understanding.

It sounds like the program has been communicated but maybe there isn't a common understanding of how the program benefits/penalizes some unfairly. That's often true in business because we look at everything from our point of view.....not neccessarily fair to all. Until it's changed? Sometimes it's tough to be open, honest and transparent.

Good luck on how you handle this until everyone has a fair, common understanding.
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:55 AM   #6
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What is the activity ?
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:48 PM   #7
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Frustration with this type of dilemma only grows as we age. Kind of like being a single citizen in a large nation. Knowing what is the correct and best thing for your nation to do, but only having one vote. Watching those with less knowledge, and questionable morality, work to their own interest without regard to the greater good.
No answer... venting and finding kindred spirits is the only way I've found to ease the angst.

Sometime miracles happen...
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:53 PM   #8
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How about skipping the cheating then asking for the rule to be strictly enforced? Expose the cheating teams so they get disqualified. Otherwise what kind of a competition is it?
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:36 PM   #9
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So your team can buy a win, or look like "fools" and lose if you leave cheating out of the tool set.
If me, I would protest the rule and the incumbent approach, running the risk of being shunned. My protest would include a detailed and well reasoned written statement including a proposal to square up the mess. If I got kicked out, I would take my enthusiasm and time elsewhere.
I spent my career as a builder and got paid to dance to the tune of codes and public policy as it affected my work. In retirement, absent a significant payoff, I usu. choose to avoid broken, rules based scenarios when optional.
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:42 PM   #10
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I do not understand how another team can spend big money without breaking the rules.... and you cannot...

Is it that all teams are supposed to be 'cheap' and some say 'screw it, I want a win' If so, then spending the money is no big deal... if most people ignore the rule and it is not enforced..... then it is not a rule....

So, what is the problem You do not want to cheat or you do not want to spend the money


Also, what is preventing someone else from spending more money than you spend to get the win... without my info we just do not know what you are talking about.....
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:49 PM   #11
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I am so happy to be retired, and not have to worry about issues like this any more.

I pretty much just do what I want. In your situation, I'd just smile and say "adios" to the group/team/whatever that is doing what you don't want them to do. And then, I'd go off and do something else that was more fun/relaxing. Life is grand, and too short to spend time like this IMO.
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:00 PM   #12
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Too vague to understand what you're talking about, but in general I tend to ignore bad rules/laws. I take responsibility if I get caught. But I tend to follow my own definition of fair, as opposed to respecting their authoritah!
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
....I am part of a team who seems to be considering cheating in an upcoming very prestigious event with a long, rich history (not easy to skip).

....The chances of getting caught are nil, strictly on an honor system. It’s well known that other low budget teams have/will cheat in the same way, have for years.

The right answer is of course to appeal to the organizers to fix the rules, and I am certain they will eventually. But it will take years out of pure bureaucratic inertia (they'd have to acknowledge their mistake). The good old boys in are trying to formulate rules brought on by new technology, an area where they're blissfully ignorant, but still "in charge." In the meantime, low budget teams are forced to accept a significant disadvantage or cheat.
I think the right answer is to listen to the little voice within you and to walk away from the team if it decides to cheat.

Quote:
I won’t bother with the details, but trust me the characterization above is accurate - there are no "loopholes."
...
The description is too vague to really compare with other activities. Details might be helpful. Digital football deflation in the Superbowl?
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:24 PM   #14
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If I'm gonna play, it's by the rules. If someone else has an advantage for any reason that I can not attain, then I resign from the game and let the powers-that-be know exactly and without any uncertainty, exactly why I'm dropping out. Enough drop and I bet the rule gets updated pretty quick.
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:34 PM   #15
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Too vague to understand what you're talking about, but in general I tend to ignore bad rules/laws. I take responsibility if I get caught. But I tend to follow my own definition of fair, as opposed to respecting their authoritah!
Yes, and I agree with you, until we get to the point that this is a competition. Others are getting hurt by rule breakers. 'Victim-less' crime? - that's different (IMO).

Quote:
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I think the right answer is to listen to the little voice within you and to walk away from the team if it decides to cheat.
...
To each their own, but I couldn't feel good about 'winning' if it involved cheating.

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Old 05-28-2015, 05:49 PM   #16
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If it is obvious to all that the team that wins the competition has "cheated" to claim victory what is the attraction of the event? Why bother. I would be interested to know what this event is and then maybe it would make some sense why anyone would want participate.
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:23 PM   #17
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Way too vague. Is this event something where it is important to win, or is just competing at your own level just as fun? I can and have run marathons in races with the world's best. But if I tried to put together a team of people like me and play volleyball against the US Olympic team it would be no fun at all. What is this event like?
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:41 PM   #18
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It gets worse when you get older, and have time to see the injustices that surround us. As a citizen, you have but one vote on how our country is run, and if everything that our elected officials do, is to your satisfaction, then you are a fortunate person.
Dealing with reality isn't always easy, but paraphrasing:

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:58 PM   #19
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Sad situation, but I am not going to rationalize cheating. My own integrity is worth more than whatever could be gained by "winning" this race to the bottom. If the activity is one you value, then consider campaigning against the rules that incentivize cheating behavior. There are probably entrenched power blocks who will be upset by you calling attention to the problem, but that's better than skulking about and cheating just because everybody's doing it.
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Old 05-28-2015, 07:06 PM   #20
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I'm not the least bit competitive, so I wouldn't have a problem simply enjoying the "doing" and to hell with the "done".

But I can imagine a situation where the "doing" would be more fun and interesting if a rule was bent a bit, lol!

For instance, there was one of those Internet polls where you could vote multiple times, and that was within the rules, but it was tedious. Nothing too much at stake except for bragging rights for who had the best taproom. But someone asked me to spend time voting, but I wrote some code and gave it out to other like-minded folks and whammo! Our total shot up! But then the competition must have also automated, and it was neck and neck at the end. It didn't matter to me who won (in fact, I can't remember if we came out on top or not), the fun was in the process.
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