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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-20-2005, 07:18 PM   #21
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Yep, and now we have a German pope. Germans and Catholics love to dominate things. Expect to hear goose-stepping in the halls of The Vatican

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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-20-2005, 07:36 PM   #22
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

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WRONG - The fact is; it is NOT currently the official policy of this administration that SS be eliminated... T or F
That depends on your time-frame, GD-ER. T or F?

Quote:
Your opinions are driven by your own conspiracy theories and prejudices... While you may value them highly, others may well be less impressed... *Your conclusions from existing writings are NOT equal to facts... sorrrry 'bout that and have a verrrry nice day...
Just because you assign motives to my conclusions doesn't make it true, GD-ER. The term "conspiracy theory" is a current favorite among neo-cons. They use this term freely to discredit people who they disagree with. No proof is offerd to back up the accusation, but that's the beauty of it. If you use a term often enough with your ditto-heads, they just swallow it like it's true.

The existence of the writings is fact. The consistency between the writings and the policy the administration is pushing for is fact. The connection between the authors and the administration is fact. You are correct. I've drawn a reasonable conclusion but have not proven beyond all doubt that this administration is doing what they are doing for the reasons their advisors have said they should do them.

Now let's examine what you are basing your alternative conclusions on . . . Oh that's right, it's based on nothing. You just want to believe it because you want to believe in your Party. So, you can choose to ignore the facts above. No need to come up with an alternative explanation for them. Just declare that your conclusion which describes none of the known facts is as good as a conclusion that describes all of the known facts because you want to believe. Faith based politics rules.

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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-20-2005, 08:19 PM   #23
 
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

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This vast right wing conspiracy stuff is entertaining... I'm willing to own my opinions and NOT try to hide behind calling them facts... I'm NOT a ditto head by any stretch of anyone's imagination... To say the conclusions of those who disagree with you are based on 'nothing' is more of the same arrogance... [yawn]
Salary Guru is right on the money! - This Social Security 'Crisis' crap has been about ideology from the start. If Bush really wanted to Save SS, what does Private Accounts have to do with that? It even takes more money out of the system.

Can you understand that? - Pulling 1/3 of the money out of SS, leaves only 2/3 to be pulled out later?

Only a dolt would believe that Bush is out to Save Social Security. He can't even convince the "Red" states that his plan is a good idea!
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-20-2005, 09:12 PM   #24
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

I'm just curious, while I will cede the point that a white paper does not make official policy, if Bush staffs his cabinet all with people who share said white paper's opinion, wouldn't that cause one to infer the possibility of it's influence on policy? I mean, if we refuse to allow anything on the table except for strict facts, we could just take the account deficit, trade deficit, employment numbers, civilian deaths in terrorist acts, military casualties, and national debt numbers for Clinton's and Bush's respective terms in office and determine Bush is a miserable failure, right?

BOT, it was my understanding SS was sold as a safety net for widows and orphans, not a way for middle class retirees to upgrade to first class on their vacations. I think we have a struggle to define SS, safety net/poverty insurance, or government sponsored investment plan? If I was for the latter, I'd say just eliminate it completely, take the tax away, and everyone now has more income which they will of course wisely save for a rainy day! Government oversight of the accounts is still big brother, right?......not seeing it happen.

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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-20-2005, 10:55 PM   #25
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

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The two pieces of pearl harbor that made me narrow my eyes were the positive intelligence that the large carrier group had left japan heading roughly towards hawaii, and the navy ship that 'holed' a japanese mini-sub just outside the entrance to the main harbor many hours before the attack began. *When the folks in charge queried washington on the presence of a japanese sub at the mouth of the harbor, they were told 'young captain, young crew, dont go on alert, ignore it'...

Somebody(s) were major chuckleheads...but I do believe that stupidity is usually a more likely cause of many problems than intention...
Quote:
Perhaps, it was a plot by Naval Aviators to rid the Navy of all those obsolete Battle Ships and to ensure a greater role for Aircraft Carriers, etc... Maybe the sub guys were in on it too <Nords>... Notice all the Aircraft Carriers were conveniently missing from Pearl... Just love those conspiracy theories... ;)
You guys should read the recent history books. (What the heck were they teaching us in high school?!?) And you can never trust those slimy aviators, right GD-ER? Actually air power was already the future, as the breakaway Army Air Corps proved a few years later.

The Japanese carriers had disappeared from the radio nets, but no one knew where they were-- just that they'd been silent for at least 15 days. "Purple" and "Magic" intercepts were temporarily useless since the Japanese had changed their call signs (suspiciously early) the month before. Meanwhile the Japanese were making naval history: sailing four carriers in the Northern Pacific (outside shipping lanes) with major danger during the dead of winter weather (perhaps a late-season typhoon as well), refueling at sea not just once but four times, making a huge 4000 nm voyage with utter radio silence (not even so much as a comms check, under literal fear of death by CO's samurai execution), and launching aircraft from as far as 350 miles due north of Oahu. They even put wood blocks on the plane's torpedo fins to keep them from diving into Pearl Harbor's shallow mud bottom, which was thought to be impervious to torpedo attack.

Shallow, indeed-- recent photo analysis has convinced one historian that USS OKLAHOMA was sunk by submarine-launched torpedos-- from inside the harbor at a range of less than 200 yards. The harbor bottom is littered with junk and we still haven't found the minisub's remains among all the other metal objects.

The U.S. Pacific aircraft carriers-- all three of them-- were ferrying supplies and, er, aircraft to Guam & Midway. As ancient as they were, in many ways they'd already made the battleships obsolete failing some cataclysmic old-fashioned sea battle. The Japanese forced a painful technological & strategic quantum leap on Battleship Row (although some young whippersnapper engineer named Rickover pulled off amazing engineroom repairs on two of them).

Kimmel and his staff were still bickering over the WARD's attack report (I can only imagine the reception their CO was about to receive if he returned pierside) when the Japanese aircraft arrived. You heard that a UH submersible found the WARD's Japanese mini-sub?

Kimmel & Short were hampered by a bunch of Washington's incompetent (and just plain negligent) intelligence workers and by the CNO. However, those two flag officers share at least as much blame for their lack of planning & readiness.

Sorry, guess I touched a nerve there. OK, I'll get down from my naval history podium now... thanks for listening.
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 05:02 AM   #26
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

What happened to this thread? Take a day off and it takes 2 days to get back in step, <isnt that a sorry excuse often used by the gainfully employed?>.

Privatization good, bigger government bad. Notable examples:

UPS - The USPS said parcel post can handle all the country's needs. Now USPS contracts with UPS to haul some of the load.

Internet email - Remember when the USPS suggested that any email sent via the net would be illegal but a 13 cent <e-stamp> fee could solve the problem?
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 07:20 AM   #27
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Took a couple of days to drive in the Texas Hill Country, seeing bluebonnets, and nesting eagles, don't you know. Anyway, I want to jump in to this discussion.

Mr. Peter Drucker is always safe to quote. He advises to raise the retirement age to 75. He also says longevity is increasing, so I don't know where Cut-throat got those charts.

Here's some Drucker:QUOTE - By 2030 at the latest, the age at which full retirement benefits start will have risen to the mid-70s in all developed countries, and benefits for healthy pensioners will be substantially lower than they are today. Indeed, fixed retirement ages for people in reasonable physical and mental condition may have been abolished to prevent the pensions burden on the working population from becoming unbearable. Already young and middle-aged people at work suspect that there will not be enough pension money to go round when they themselves reach traditional retirement age. But politicians everywhere continue to pretend that they can save the current pensions system.
... and here's his take on early retirement... The second reason for the split is a shrinking life expectancy for businesses and organisations of all kinds. In the past, employing organisations have outlived employees. In future, employees, and especially knowledge workers, will increasingly outlive even successful organisations. Few businesses, or even government agencies or programmes, last for more than 30 years. Historically, the working lifespan of most employees has been less than 30 years because most manual workers simply wore out. But knowledge workers who enter the labour force in their 20s are likely to be still in good physical and mental shape 50 years later.

"Second career" and "second half of one's life" have already become buzzwords in America. Increasingly, employees there take early retirement as soon as their pension and Social Security (state retirement benefit) rights are guaranteed for the time when they reach traditional retirement age; but they do not stop working. Instead, their "seond career" often takes an unconventional form. They may work freelance (and often forget to tell the taxman about their work, thus boosting their net income), or part-time, or as "temporaries", or for an outsourcing contractor, or as contractors themselves. Such "early retirement to keep on working" is particularly common among knowledge workers, who are still a minority among people now reaching 50 or 55, but will become the largest single group of older people in America from about 2030. UNQUOTE

Mr. Drucker has prognosticated wrongly before, but he's also been right. His take on "politicians pretending they can save the current system" is correct, of course. And this was written long before GWB became the prez.
Here's your link. You'll have to go to the "New Demographics" article.
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 07:35 AM   #28
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Eagle 43, I usually like your stuff. But Drucker's
opinions (at least the ones you mentioned) seem
like bullshit and platitudes to me. Of course, I rarely
agree with anyone's prognostications, other than my own
of course

Hey, a quick joke! I possess a somewhat oversized
"nasal unit". DW has recently taken to calling me
"Nostrildamus"

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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 09:42 AM   #29
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

I tend to think you will see more of a blend - like my old buddy Mike - Navy pension, Boeing pension and working on his Lockheed pension - would have took SS if the rules were different.

And let's not forget the old Norwegian widow - div.'s and interest - interest and div.'s.

P.S. He also qualified (?) to bid on govt. surplus - bought and sold weird stuff out of his garage.
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 09:52 AM   #30
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

And that was my point GD-ER, even a bare listing of facts can paint a skewed picture by what it omits. I guess you win the debate on technical merits, it is possible that while Bush has staffed his cabinet with people with one viewpoint and shaken out those with differing/opposing viewpoints, that he could have a different mind on the issue(s). I have yet to be allowed to sit in on cabinet meetings, so I can't say for sure.

But I believe the preponderance of the evidence is consistent with what C-T is saying (I'm too lazy to look up quotes/white papers from all the players in this, I know I've seen it before). Privatizing part/all of SS is consistent with a desire to elminate it as we know it. Not saying that is definitely what they are doing, and not debating as to whether this is a good thing or a bad thing ( I have my opinion, but I'll keep mum for now).

Circumstancial evidence, but it reminds me of when Supreme Court nominees are on record saying abortion is murder and then tell democrats at Senate hearings that they have no opinion on Roe v. Wade. I guess it's possible....
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 10:29 AM   #31
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

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Eagle 43, I usually like your stuff. But Drucker's
opinions (at least the ones you mentioned) seem
like bullshit and platitudes to me. Of course, I rarely
agree with anyone's prognostications, other than my own
of course

Hey, a quick joke! I possess a somewhat oversized
"nasal unit". DW has recently taken to calling me
"Nostrildamus"

JG
JG, Just don't sneeze on me!

Well, Drucker is a wheezing geezer (born in 1909?). But, he's spent his life studying management and trends, etc. Even has a Drucker Center, in Claremont (I believe) where smart people discuss things like aging, mgt. I knew this article wouldn't be well-received, but it is an addition to all the pontificating about ss. And you can bet the farm he's not in the pocket of the Republicans or Democrats. So now you know what one really smart guy says, and you can take it for what it's worth.
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 10:44 AM   #32
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

I wouldnt discount anything Peter Drucker says. I spent almost an entire day with him about 4 years ago. One of the more fascinating days in my life.
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 03:57 PM   #33
 
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

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Mr. Peter Drucker is always safe to quote. *He advises to raise the retirement age to 75. *He also says longevity is increasing, so I don't know where Cut-throat got those charts. *
The sources are printed right on the charts. Not too hard to find! The charts also show the life expectancy increasing. But not to the degree often quoted. The real gains have been at the front end of life rather than the back end.

Eagle43 also wants to 'Fix' our Social Secuity for us! - I say apply his fix to his Military Pension Also!

While we were working and paying his salary, the same government promised us a retirement also! *- The promises to Eagle43 are no more sacred than the promises to all of us Private Citizens! -

Life expectancies for Military retirees have gone up as well!

Apply the same cuts to all Military Pensions as those that are applied to Social Security! Again - Same Government, Same Pot of Money, Same Reasons, Same Logic!
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 04:06 PM   #34
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

There were good reasons why my oldemor invested carefully.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/we...12000mu6PYu6bY


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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 05:25 PM   #35
 
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

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How sad that someone actually believes this?!

If someone providing service defending the country for 20+ years hasn't earned better, then... -- nevermind...

I suppose the only ones with the right to an opinion are millionaires who don't need SS?!

It's OUR SS too, we've contributed and are entitled to benefits too... *And opinions...
By the tone of your post, you actually believe that you are more deserving of your Government Pension than a private citizen. You're not! - Get over it!

As I said before. Same Government, Same Pot of Money, Same Reasons, Same Logic, Same Promises!
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 05:33 PM   #36
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

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How sad that someone actually believes this?!

If someone providing service defending the country for 20+ years hasn't earned better, then... -- nevermind...
Oh dear, GD-ER, please don't be offended. We love you guys and appreciate you beyond belief. It's just that we feel rejected. We would like you to show a little respect for the poor slobs who are being taxed to keep you well cared for. Like all the non GD ERs around here.

Mikey
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 05:51 PM   #37
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

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The sources are printed right on the charts. Not too hard to find! The charts also show the life expectancy increasing. But not to the degree often quoted. The real gains have been at the front end of life rather than the back end.

Eagle43 also wants to 'Fix' our Social Secuity for us! - I say apply his fix to his Military Pension Also!

While we were working and paying his salary, the same government promised us a retirement also! - The promises to Eagle43 are no more sacred than the promises to all of us Private Citizens! -

Life expectancies for Military retirees have gone up as well!

Apply the same cuts to all Military Pensions as those that are applied to Social Security! Again - Same Government, Same Pot of Money, Same Reasons, Same Logic!
But, But, But.... Drucker didn't mention any military. Of course, he probably respects the military.

Stop and consider. There are 300+ million Americans. I would bet that 200+ never put on a uniform. They just get suckers to do the fighting/dying/getting maimed/ separated from family, for them, in their name, whether they support whatever war's going on or not.

"While we were working and paying his salary",said C-T, derivisely. How's this for accuracy? While we were fat-catting while Eagle was living in a tent at Danang, now that would be more realistic. Of course, you didn't go. You moaned cause you missed Woodstock; wonder if you'd moan about missing Danang. I doubt it, but please don't begrudge me "the promise."

And of course, I think any promises to Eagle43 are sacred.

CutThroat, I think your lifestyle is admirable. ER-wise, You seem to have it all together. I look forward to reading your posts. So, keep on fishing; that's nice. But, puhleese keep on paying all them taxes that you love; keep on paying all that ss taxes you favor; and I'll keep on taking what portion of them I can.

Oh, and you can apply my social security solution to my military pension. Because my solution doesn't touch present retirees. So there!

And, before I forget, they've already reneged on promises to us military anyway, so what's a little reneging to you cats who never served. Same government; same pot of money, same reasons, same logic. Hmmmmm.

BTW: What's your opinion of Drucker's article? Not me, but Drucker? Probably not liberal enough for you, huh?
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 05:56 PM   #38
 
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Sorry, my benefits are earned and my head is held high when I get paid. I pay taxes, earn my benefits, and the right to an opinion in this country... *
Same with us. Our Benefits are earned and our heads are held high. We paid our taxes, your salary, and funded Social Security (Most here to the Max), and we also have our opinions.

All us civilians want is equal treatment! - No one here advocated messing with your pension, until you guys started advocating messing with ours.

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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 05:58 PM   #39
 
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"While we were working and paying his salary",said C-T, derivisely. How's this for accuracy? While we were fat-catting while Eagle was living in a tent at Danang, now that would be more realistic. Of course, you didn't go.

And, before I forget, they've already reneged on promises to us military anyway, so what's a little reneging to you cats who never served. Same government; same pot of money, same reasons, same logic. *Hmmmmm.
Well, Eagle I spent 6 years in the Navy, so you are wrong on a lot of counts! - You think you know it all, but that's your problem. You don't think!
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF
Old 04-21-2005, 07:24 PM   #40
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Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Okay, here is my take on Drucker (yes, I have read some of his stuff but dozed off pretty quick). Not only is he a "wheezing geezer" but he is dumb as a post.
th................Man, if a day with Drucker was one of your most fascinating, well.........................you have got a lot of livin' to do young man

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