Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

[BUM]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

What happened to this thread? Take a day off and it takes 2 days to get back in step, <isnt that a sorry excuse often used by the gainfully employed?>.

Privatization good, bigger government bad. Notable examples:

UPS - The USPS said parcel post can handle all the country's needs. Now USPS contracts with UPS to haul some of the load.

Internet email - Remember when the USPS suggested that any email sent via the net would be illegal but a 13 cent <e-stamp> fee could solve the problem?

 

[Eagle43]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Took a couple of days to drive in the Texas Hill Country, seeing bluebonnets, and nesting eagles, don't you know. Anyway, I want to jump in to this discussion.

Mr. Peter Drucker is always safe to quote. He advises to raise the retirement age to 75. He also says longevity is increasing, so I don't know where Cut-throat got those charts.

Here's some Drucker:QUOTE - By 2030 at the latest, the age at which full retirement benefits start will have risen to the mid-70s in all developed countries, and benefits for healthy pensioners will be substantially lower than they are today. Indeed, fixed retirement ages for people in reasonable physical and mental condition may have been abolished to prevent the pensions burden on the working population from becoming unbearable. Already young and middle-aged people at work suspect that there will not be enough pension money to go round when they themselves reach traditional retirement age. But politicians everywhere continue to pretend that they can save the current pensions system.
... and here's his take on early retirement... The second reason for the split is a shrinking life expectancy for businesses and organisations of all kinds. In the past, employing organisations have outlived employees. In future, employees, and especially knowledge workers, will increasingly outlive even successful organisations. Few businesses, or even government agencies or programmes, last for more than 30 years. Historically, the working lifespan of most employees has been less than 30 years because most manual workers simply wore out. But knowledge workers who enter the labour force in their 20s are likely to be still in good physical and mental shape 50 years later.

"Second career" and "second half of one's life" have already become buzzwords in America. Increasingly, employees there take early retirement as soon as their pension and Social Security (state retirement benefit) rights are guaranteed for the time when they reach traditional retirement age; but they do not stop working. Instead, their "seond career" often takes an unconventional form. They may work freelance (and often forget to tell the taxman about their work, thus boosting their net income), or part-time, or as "temporaries", or for an outsourcing contractor, or as contractors themselves. Such "early retirement to keep on working" is particularly common among knowledge workers, who are still a minority among people now reaching 50 or 55, but will become the largest single group of older people in America from about 2030. UNQUOTE

Mr. Drucker has prognosticated wrongly before, but he's also been right. His take on "politicians pretending they can save the current system" is correct, of course. And this was written long before GWB became the prez.
Here's your link. You'll have to go to the "New Demographics" article.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Eagle 43, I usually like your stuff. But Drucker's
opinions (at least the ones you mentioned) seem
like bullshit and platitudes to me. Of course, I rarely
agree with anyone's prognostications, other than my own
of course

Hey, a quick joke! I possess a somewhat oversized
"nasal unit". DW has recently taken to calling me
"Nostrildamus"

JG

 

[unclemick]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

I tend to think you will see more of a blend - like my old buddy Mike - Navy pension, Boeing pension and working on his Lockheed pension - would have took SS if the rules were different.

And let's not forget the old Norwegian widow - div.'s and interest - interest and div.'s.

P.S. He also qualified (?) to bid on govt. surplus - bought and sold weird stuff out of his garage.

 

[laurence]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

And that was my point GD-ER, even a bare listing of facts can paint a skewed picture by what it omits. I guess you win the debate on technical merits, it is possible that while Bush has staffed his cabinet with people with one viewpoint and shaken out those with differing/opposing viewpoints, that he could have a different mind on the issue(s). I have yet to be allowed to sit in on cabinet meetings, so I can't say for sure.

But I believe the preponderance of the evidence is consistent with what C-T is saying (I'm too lazy to look up quotes/white papers from all the players in this, I know I've seen it before). Privatizing part/all of SS is consistent with a desire to elminate it as we know it. Not saying that is definitely what they are doing, and not debating as to whether this is a good thing or a bad thing ( I have my opinion, but I'll keep mum for now).

Circumstancial evidence, but it reminds me of when Supreme Court nominees are on record saying abortion is murder and then tell democrats at Senate hearings that they have no opinion on Roe v. Wade. I guess it's possible....

 

[Eagle43]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Eagle 43, I usually like your stuff. But Drucker's
opinions (at least the ones you mentioned) seem
like bullshit and platitudes to me. Of course, I rarely
agree with anyone's prognostications, other than my own
of course

Hey, a quick joke! I possess a somewhat oversized
"nasal unit". DW has recently taken to calling me
"Nostrildamus"

JG

JG, Just don't sneeze on me!

Well, Drucker is a wheezing geezer (born in 1909?). But, he's spent his life studying management and trends, etc. Even has a Drucker Center, in Claremont (I believe) where smart people discuss things like aging, mgt. I knew this article wouldn't be well-received, but it is an addition to all the pontificating about ss. And you can bet the farm he's not in the pocket of the Republicans or Democrats. So now you know what one really smart guy says, and you can take it for what it's worth.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

I wouldnt discount anything Peter Drucker says. I spent almost an entire day with him about 4 years ago. One of the more fascinating days in my life.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Mr. Peter Drucker is always safe to quote.  He advises to raise the retirement age to 75.  He also says longevity is increasing, so I don't know where Cut-throat got those charts.  

The sources are printed right on the charts. Not too hard to find! The charts also show the life expectancy increasing. But not to the degree often quoted. The real gains have been at the front end of life rather than the back end.

Eagle43 also wants to 'Fix' our Social Secuity for us! - I say apply his fix to his Military Pension Also!

While we were working and paying his salary, the same government promised us a retirement also!  - The promises to Eagle43 are no more sacred than the promises to all of us Private Citizens! -

Life expectancies for Military retirees have gone up as well!

Apply the same cuts to all Military Pensions as those that are applied to Social Security! Again - Same Government, Same Pot of Money, Same Reasons, Same Logic!

 

[Brat]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

There were good reasons why my oldemor invested carefully.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/w...p&rd=hcmcp?p=048nRs048nSD4A35S012000mu6PYu6bY

 

[Cut-Throat]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

How sad that someone actually believes this?!

If someone providing service defending the country for 20+ years hasn't earned better, then... -- nevermind...

I suppose the only ones with the right to an opinion are millionaires who don't need SS?!

It's OUR SS too, we've contributed and are entitled to benefits too...  And opinions...

By the tone of your post, you actually believe that you are more deserving of your Government Pension than a private citizen. You're not! - Get over it!

As I said before. Same Government, Same Pot of Money, Same Reasons, Same Logic, Same Promises!

 

[haha]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

How sad that someone actually believes this?!

If someone providing service defending the country for 20+ years hasn't earned better, then... -- nevermind...

Oh dear, GD-ER, please don't be offended. We love you guys and appreciate you beyond belief. It's just that we feel rejected. We would like you to show a little respect for the poor slobs who are being taxed to keep you well cared for. Like all the non GD ERs around here.

Mikey

 

[Eagle43]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

The sources are printed right on the charts. Not too hard to find! The charts also show the life expectancy increasing. But not to the degree often quoted. The real gains have been at the front end of life rather than the back end.

Eagle43 also wants to 'Fix' our Social Secuity for us! - I say apply his fix to his Military Pension Also!

While we were working and paying his salary, the same government promised us a retirement also! - The promises to Eagle43 are no more sacred than the promises to all of us Private Citizens! -

Life expectancies for Military retirees have gone up as well!

Apply the same cuts to all Military Pensions as those that are applied to Social Security! Again - Same Government, Same Pot of Money, Same Reasons, Same Logic!

But, But, But.... Drucker didn't mention any military. Of course, he probably respects the military.

Stop and consider. There are 300+ million Americans. I would bet that 200+ never put on a uniform. They just get suckers to do the fighting/dying/getting maimed/ separated from family, for them, in their name, whether they support whatever war's going on or not.

"While we were working and paying his salary",said C-T, derivisely. How's this for accuracy? While we were fat-catting while Eagle was living in a tent at Danang, now that would be more realistic. Of course, you didn't go. You moaned cause you missed Woodstock; wonder if you'd moan about missing Danang. I doubt it, but please don't begrudge me "the promise."

And of course, I think any promises to Eagle43 are sacred.

CutThroat, I think your lifestyle is admirable. ER-wise, You seem to have it all together. I look forward to reading your posts. So, keep on fishing; that's nice. But, puhleese keep on paying all them taxes that you love; keep on paying all that ss taxes you favor; and I'll keep on taking what portion of them I can.

Oh, and you can apply my social security solution to my military pension. Because my solution doesn't touch present retirees. So there!

And, before I forget, they've already reneged on promises to us military anyway, so what's a little reneging to you cats who never served. Same government; same pot of money, same reasons, same logic. Hmmmmm.

BTW: What's your opinion of Drucker's article? Not me, but Drucker? Probably not liberal enough for you, huh?

 

[Cut-Throat]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Sorry, my benefits are earned and my head is held high when I get paid. I pay taxes, earn my benefits, and the right to an opinion in this country...  

Same with us. Our Benefits are earned and our heads are held high. We paid our taxes, your salary, and funded Social Security (Most here to the Max), and we also have our opinions.

All us civilians want is equal treatment! - No one here advocated messing with your pension, until you guys started advocating messing with ours.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

"While we were working and paying his salary",said C-T, derivisely. How's this for accuracy? While we were fat-catting while Eagle was living in a tent at Danang, now that would be more realistic. Of course, you didn't go.

And, before I forget, they've already reneged on promises to us military anyway, so what's a little reneging to you cats who never served. Same government; same pot of money, same reasons, same logic.  Hmmmmm.

Well, Eagle I spent 6 years in the Navy, so you are wrong on a lot of counts! - You think you know it all, but that's your problem. You don't think!

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Okay, here is my take on Drucker (yes, I have read some of his stuff but dozed off pretty quick). Not only is he a "wheezing geezer" but he is dumb as a post.
th................Man, if a day with Drucker was one of your most fascinating, well.........................you have got a lot of livin' to do young man

JG

 

[sgeeeee]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

Okay, here is my take on Drucker (yes, I have read some of his stuff but dozed off pretty quick).  Not only is he a "wheezing geezer" but he is dumb as a post.
th................Man, if a day with Drucker was one of your most fascinating, well.........................you have got a lot of livin' to do young man    

JG

A little stronger than I would have put it -- but mostly on target. Drucker reminds me of the main character in Being There. Although he is mentally deficient and utters only simple, obvious statements, people seem to read great meaning and brilliance into them. I don't get it.

As a technical reviewer, I would reject almost everything I've ever read by Drucker. It all comes short of making solid conclusions. But if you like him, then read him.

 

[unclemick]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

I like Drucker. Has his finger on problem created by the success of the modern age.

One of the great illusions - that there are conclusions.
Probably due to thinking there are numerial solutions to things. In engineering - a good grasp of what you don't know is why I got to do make and break testing.

I suspect we'll will live through it and try a variety of solutions with varying degrees of sucess.

 

[sgeeeee]

Re: PRIVATIZATION: The boogey man will get you, IF

. . .One of the great illusions - that there are conclusions.
Probably due to thinking there are numerial solutions to things. In engineering - a good grasp of what you don't know is why I got to do make and break testing.

I suspect we'll will live through it and try a variety of solutions with varying degrees of sucess.

You are mistaking "conclusions" for "solutions". Make and break testing gives me a conclusion but not necessarity a solution. Good writing should at least conclude something (ie there is a problem, everything is okay, the sky is falling, . . .) even if the author has no idea how to solve the problem or how to keep the status quo.