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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-14-2007, 04:11 PM   #21
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCdaCE
I question this. Have a link to prove your point? I did a quick search, but didn't turn up much. Apparently I'm using the wrong search terms.

Are we talkin', "a load of iron ore, 26,000 thousand tons more than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty" or are we talkin' the "occasional" load of processed lumber moved by train.

Or are you comparing Mississippi barges vs. the train tracks that run along side them?

-CC
Looking for a link. I used to live on the Mississippi River, and I know that barge shipping was cheaper than rail. However, that cost efficiency was mitigated if you lived more than 100 miles from a river that could handle barge traffic...........not too good in Montana............
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-14-2007, 04:16 PM   #22
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

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Originally Posted by Nords
I still get a cheap thrill from driving 65 MPH in the five-mile stretch of H-1 that's limited to 60 MPH.
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-14-2007, 04:17 PM   #23
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Geez, I've never had either of our current cars or the last three up in that range!
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-14-2007, 06:42 PM   #24
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
FinanceDude, you are wrong about the energy cost of ships vs trains on a tonnage. The only reason you see grain on a train is the shipper doesn't have barge or ship access.
Or live within shouting distance of a major waterway. I used to have the barge guys all come in and see me when they were in town, and they knew all the numbers and that.

Barges are VERY EFFECTIVE in the open wa ter season.......pretty tough to move grain on the "Ole Miss" this time of year..........
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-14-2007, 07:28 PM   #25
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

It is tough to operate a barge or a ship where the vessel won't float, just as it is tough to use train transportation where there is no rail head. To discuss which mode is cheaper or more cost effective it is necessary to choose between available options.

So how is the Mississippi River these days? Is the CoE maintaining a deep enough channel?
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 10:36 AM   #26
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
It is tough to operate a barge or a ship where the vessel won't float, just as it is tough to use train transportation where there is no rail head. To discuss which mode is cheaper or more cost effective it is necessary to choose between available options.

So how is the Mississippi River these days? Is the CoE maintaining a deep enough channel?
They dredge different parts every year.............however a lot of it is on hold because a lot of them are scratching their heads about levees down my New Orleans.........

In regards to shipping costs, I think you have to look at TOTAL COST..............if you ship to a rail head, and then truck to the end-user, that's a double cost. However, for shipping one way to enduser, either container ship or rail is probably cheapest. However, if you have time-sensitive stuff, neither works extremely well..............
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 11:44 AM   #27
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Today most "goods" (mfg items) are shipped in intermodal containers from the factory. If manufactured internationally they are rucked to the port, transported by ship, off loaded to a truck or train car that transports the container to a distribution center. From there most are transported by truck.

If manufactured in the US then remove the ship leg, and sometimes the train transportation.

Bulk cargo (grain, coal) are usually transported first by truck in a hopper container of various types, then loaded onto train cars/barges for transport to the user. Some are destined internationally, that goes by ship.

Liquids are piped and transported by ship in large part. Locally they are transported by truck.

Bunker oil that ships burn can be so heavy it is like tar. Trains and tug-boats use the same type of oil that is used for home heat or they use diesel.

In my lifetime tremendous efficiencies have been made through the use of intermodal containers. Each shipper uses the most cost effective way to transport their cargo. Our challenge as a society is to free us from dependency on oil. What this means to me is that to the extent we use oil we must be very efficient, and where ever possible find alternative sources of energy whatever the mode of transportation.
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 12:57 PM   #28
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude
I give up a little, but like my 4-cyl Accord. I get 34-35 on the highway, and about 25 in the city. I have averaged 28-29 with my driving being mixed............
My wifes lexus gets 99mpg going downhill with your foot off the gas.

Now i'm looking for a new house thats in a very hilly area...
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 02:38 PM   #29
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
My wifes lexus gets 99mpg going downhill with your foot off the gas.

Now i'm looking for a new house thats in a very hilly area...


Yeah, I love those fuel economy meters too.........

Seriously, I think GM's hybrid Suburbans have the potential to scare big oil..........except they will be $50,000 +!!
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 07:17 PM   #30
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
My understanding is that the typical US locomotive uses diesel-electric technology,
in which the wheels are driven purely by electric motors, which in turn are powered
by generators driven by a diesel engine running at laximum efficiency. Seems like
a much simpler system than today's hybrid automobile, and it's unclear to me why
the cars don't work the same way.

Of course, the bigger point still remains, that trains are a more efficient way of
moving freight across long terrestrial distances.

Actually, that is pretty much how the cars work.
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 07:28 PM   #31
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

GM has an urban bus hybrid system. There logic was to roll out hybrids in busses first because one hybrid bus=several hundred hybrid cars in terms of fuel saved. Seattle has over 200 60ft articulated busses in service for 2 years. They are catching on pretty well in DC/Balto/Philly/ Wilmington and lots of other places too. The upfront cost is huge, but Federal Gov't subsidizes busses big time. In order for trucking to catch on, it will take some high volume and/or US Army contracts. I think school busses maybe next. The point about Post Office and UPS is right on also as hybrids really only help in stop and go duty cycles.......so even if big rigs DID get 7 MPG (which they dont), hybrids dont do much for over the road operation. EPA regulations just kicked in which will cut fuel economy significantly, but noone knows exactly how much (or if the new engines will even work) at this point.
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 07:50 PM   #32
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

i did not read this whole thread, but i noticed your mention of 7.5 mpg for semis


i had a talk with my stepdad the other day, and he gets a big bonus if he hits 5.9mpg. 5.3 -5.5 is average...this is loaded with a gvw ranging from 30-75k lbs
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 08:21 PM   #33
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

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i had a talk with my stepdad the other day, and he gets a big bonus if he hits 5.9mpg. 5.3 -5.5 is average...this is loaded with a gvw ranging from 30-75k lbs
So, they weigh as much as about 15 automobiles, and they get 5.5 mpg. That's pretty darn good in comparison. Not as good a a train or barge, but more efficient than what most of us drive by a long shot.

I remember a piece of environmental agitprop wailing about how wasteful air travel is. "A 747 flying cross country just one time burns more fuel than a family car burns in its lifetime!" Well, lets see, that jet holds 400 people plus their bags. 400 people x 3000 miles = 1,200,000 person-miles. That's about 8 times the number of person-miles the car would typically have delivered. I don't know if any of the numbers were right, but the factoid itself argued for more, not less, air travel in place of car travel.

Subsequent Edit: Ooops-- I added a zero above. The plane delivered 120,000 person miles, which is probably about the same or slightly less than a car would have been expected to deliver in those days. So, environmental impact of both modes of travel might be expected to be roughly equal.
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 08:45 PM   #34
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

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Originally Posted by samclem
I don't know if any of the numbers were right, but the factoid itself argued for more, not less, air travel in place of car travel.
Better drivers & lower accident rates, too...
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 08:47 PM   #35
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Rebuild the american railroads!!

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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 10:27 PM   #36
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

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Rebuild the american railroads!!
Hybrid Loco
http://www.railpower.com/products_hl_ggseries.html
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 11:24 PM   #37
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
I remember a piece of environmental agitprop wailing about how wasteful air travel is. "A 747 flying cross country just one time burns more fuel than a family car burns in its lifetime!" Well, lets see, that jet holds 400 people plus their bags. 400 people x 3000 miles = 1,200,000 person-miles. That's about 8 times the number of person-miles the car would typically have delivered. I don't know if any of the numbers were right, but the factoid itself argued for more, not less, air travel in place of car travel.
Uhh, the environmental agitprop was correct in terms of both BTU/passenger mile and in terms of CO2 emissions. Planes are worse than (non-SUV) cars.


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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 11:36 PM   #38
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

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Uhh, the environmental agitprop was correct in terms of both BTU/passenger mile and in terms of CO2 emissions. Planes are worse than (non-SUV) cars.
Uhh, are you talking about a real car, the way Amercians drive them (1-2 people, 22 mpg) or a Prius with 4 people aboard?
According to the link below, a 747 gets 100 person/miles per gallon. There's absolutely no way that it is putting out more CO2 (or BTU) per passenger mile than a car.

http://travel.howstuffworks.com/question192.htm

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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 11:42 PM   #39
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Uhh, Are you talking about a real car, the way Amercians drive them (1-2 people, 22 mpg) or a Prius with 4 people aboard?
According to the link below, a 747 gets 100 person/miles per gallon. There's absolutely no way that it is putting out more CO2 (or BTU) per passenger mile than a car.

http://travel.howstuffworks.com/question192.htm

Yes, a real car the way Americans drive them. That's why I wrote "BTU/passenger mile."

http://www.bts.gov/publications/nati...ble_04_20.html

It turns out that flying has been more fuel efficient than driving in 2003 and 2004, breaking a 35 year trend. Who knows why this is? CAFE is down, winglets, older planes retiring?

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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............
Old 02-15-2007, 11:47 PM   #40
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Re: Real Way to Save Oil..............

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Originally Posted by newguy888
Rebuild the american railroads!!

Yes. It was a dumb move to let the railroads die because we didn't want to subsidize them. We subsidize trucking through road taxes in very dramatic ways. Semis are very destructive to our highways and the tax they pay does not come close to paying the difference between the wear and tear they do to the highways and that done by small cars.

We Americans want our cars, but we do not really appreciate what we are paying for the roads and highways we drive them on.
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