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View Poll Results: Has there ever been a time in your civilian life when shooting someone protected you or your family?
Yes. I've had to shoot at people more than once. 0 0%
Yes, I've had to shoot at someone once. 0 0%
No. I own a gun or guns and it makes me feel better though. 19 35.19%
No. I don't own a gun, but I or my family was hurt once because I didn't have one. 1 1.85%
No. I don't own a gun and have never needed one to protect myself. 34 62.96%
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Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 02:13 PM   #1
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Reality and your concepts of self protection

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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 02:49 PM   #2
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

I've got one and it makes me feel better.
I've always said that if city dwellers knew the types of criminals that were roaming the streets and the incredible numbers involved, they would at a minimum be very shocked and demand action in a very loud unified voice.
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 02:55 PM   #3
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPatrick
I've got one and it makes me feel better.
I've always said that if city dwellers knew the types of criminals that were roaming the streets and the incredible numbers involved, they would at a minimum be very shocked and demand action in a very loud unified voice.
That may be (action demanded by city dwellers) but they wouldn't get any; just empty
promises and dopey programs. You are better off watching out for yourself
IMHO. The margin between relative safety and destruction is razor thin, as we
have recently seen yet again.

JG
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 03:04 PM   #4
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

I answered: No. I don't own a gun and have never needed one to protect myself. But I also think that is beside the point.
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 03:10 PM   #5
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Concealed carry is legal in Texas now (as it is in most states).
Before this was the case, a woman was meeting her parents for lunch
at a local Luby's Cafeteria. *Not wanting to take a chance, *she left
her handgun in her car. *A deranged man opened fire and killed both
parents. *She could have saved at least one, maybe both. *I forgot her name, but she spent a lot of
time promoting legal concealed carry in the years following.

JG
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 03:52 PM   #6
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Quote:
Concealed carry is legal in Texas now (as it is in most states).
Before this was the case, a woman was meeting her parents for lunch
at a local Luby's Cafeteria. Not wanting to take a chance, she left
her handgun in her car. A deranged man opened fire and killed both
parents. She could have saved at least one, maybe both. I forgot her name, but she spent a lot of
time promoting legal concealed carry in the years following.
- this episode of Season Street was brought to you by the letters N, R, and A.
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 04:05 PM   #7
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddythebeagle
- this episode of Season Street was brought to you by the letters N, R, and A.
The NRA used this heavily but it happens to be true. BTW, "Season Street"?? Is it cocktail hour where you are located?

JG
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 04:08 PM   #8
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
Concealed carry is legal in Texas now (as it is in most states).
Before this was the case, a woman was meeting her parents for lunch
at a local Luby's Cafeteria. Not wanting to take a chance, she left
her handgun in her car. A deranged man opened fire and killed both
parents. She could have saved at least one, maybe both. I forgot her name, but she spent a lot of
time promoting legal concealed carry in the years following.
Are you talking about the Killeen massacre? I thought that had a lot to do with the C&C law.

Actually I think a grouped melee attack against the gunman would've been safer and more effective than a handgun carrier firing in a confused restaurant. I'm not anti-gun-ownership, but I'm not sure the NRA (or whoever) promoting that a C&C person firing back in this situation is the best advice. At point blank range just shove the SOB and poke eyes, groin, jugular and whatever sensitive parts are reachable. Faster than pulling out a gun and 1/2 as many bullets flying away from the ruckus and it really messes up the bad guy's aim.
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 04:21 PM   #9
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

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Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
Are you talking about the Killeen massacre? I thought that had a lot to do with the C&C law.

Actually I think a grouped melee attack against the gunman would've been safer and more effective than a handgun carrier firing in a confused restaurant. I'm not anti-gun-ownership, but I'm not sure the NRA (or whoever) promoting that a C&C person firing back in this situation is the best advice. At point blank range just shove the SOB and poke eyes, groin, jugular and whatever sensitive parts are reachable. Faster than pulling out a gun and 1/2 as many bullets flying away from the ruckus and it really messes up the bad guy's aim.
It could have been Killeen. An aside, my best friend was in Killeen when he
was in the service. Soured him on Texas forever But, I digress.........
Re. "poking eyes, groin, etc"..........I do NOT agree at all. If you have a
weapon (assuming you know how to use it and it's not a .22), one round in
the ear is enough. I have owned handguns big enough to put down an elephant, although I concede they might be a bit awkward to tote into
a restaurant

JG
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 04:43 PM   #10
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

You forgot:

"No, I don't own a gun, but a family member was hurt because they had one."


The last gun I held was handgun, .357 Magnum I think, with a scope and laser. The owner was my wife's uncle. He was proud member of the NRA, with many guns hidden behind a secret panel in his home.

He blew is head off while cleaning his .45 automatic. Apparently forgot about a round in the chamber.
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 04:47 PM   #11
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Sorry, but I really need to contribute my $0.02 to this one.

I'm always fascinated at how many folks that have little to no knowledge about firearms and their history have very firm opinions about their efficacy in stopping crime.

JG, you're right ... that woman is Dr. Suzanna Gratia Hupp http://www.house.state.tx.us/members/dist54/hupp.htm, and she was very instrumental in helping to pass the concealed carry law in TX.

For those who pooh-pooh the ability of private citizens to defend themselves and innocent others, consider the other perspective, and facts ... Robert Waters has a very enlightening book: http://tinyurl.com/cd2n8. Watch your local paper for such stories ... they are always buried deep inside, if reported at all. The authorities don't like the competition ... or the reminder that in spite of best intentions and efforts, they usually get there in time to draw the chalk lines, not stop the violence.

And, even if you don't like guns or see a reason for them ... consider taking a firearms training course ... concealed carry, shotgun, rifle, etc. You'll find out there is much, much more to the issue and sport than the impressions you receive from the media.

Lastly, consider this ... on 9/11 there was only one group that successfully defended us against terrorists ... that was the passengers on Flight 93 (movies coming out ... e.g. I believe A&E on 9/11/05). In NOLA, note the story about the young man who got tired of waiting for government help, and commandeered a school bus, saving over 70 people.

This forum, more than any other, seems dedicated to the idea of self sufficiency, taking responsibility for one's self and family, planning for the future, and using intellect instead of raw emotion. Not a place where I would expect knee-jerk acceptance of the anti-self defense nonsense.

For more discussion on the topic, and your opportunity to engage in intelligent discussion of the issue, check out www.thehighroad.org.

Are "guns the answer"? No, civility, decency, good parenting, community self-help, a good criminal justice system and many other things are part of the answer. But if the sight of NOLA, and the LA riots in the 90's don't make it clear that your own ability to defend yourself and your family are critical, then I don't know what to say.

Just don't interfere in the ability of other Americans to own and use firearms to defend themselves and their families ... because when citizens do that, they become the violent offenders who endanger those of us who simply want to live in peace and safety.

Best regards

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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 05:10 PM   #12
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOL!
You forgot:

"No, I don't own a gun, but* a family member was hurt because they had one."


The last gun I held was handgun, .357 Magnum I think, with a scope and laser.* The owner was my wife's uncle.* He was proud member of the NRA, with many guns hidden behind a secret panel in his home.

He blew is head off while cleaning his .45 automatic.* Apparently forgot about a round in the chamber.
I am sorry about your wife's uncle, but I must inform the readers of your post
that there is a lot more to this story left unsaid, as gruesome as it may first appear.

JG
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 05:16 PM   #13
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

I don't advocate everyone grabbing a firearm, and waving it around at the slightest provocation...

For family/home protection, my weapon of choice is the shotgun. Just point and shoot.

As for concealed carry, I think an individual who chooses to do so must accept the responsibility to reserve its use as a last resort when danger is imminent.

And if you choose to purchase a firearm, at least learn how to use it...

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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 05:29 PM   #14
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOL!
You forgot:

"No, I don't own a gun, but* a family member was hurt because they had one."


The last gun I held was handgun, .357 Magnum I think, with a scope and laser.* The owner was my wife's uncle.* He was proud member of the NRA, with many guns hidden behind a secret panel in his home.

He blew is head off while cleaning his .45 automatic.* Apparently forgot about a round in the chamber.
Good point. *This happened to a friend of mine a couple of months ago in West Chester, PA. *He was 46, and I went up for the funeral as they were both very good friends and colleagues. *Both he and his wife were regular members of the local gun club, so he was hardly inexperienced.

I don't own a gun and my DW wouldn't hear of it, even though I would definitely consider one now that the kids have left home. *

Just this afternoon I was talking to a good friend in Baton Rouge. *She is in her 70's and was saying that since the influx of evacuees from NOLA she tried to get more ammo for her handgun (the last gun I handled in fact was her large caliber revolver). *Apparently the Police supply store is sold out of ammo and mace, which I had read about yesterday. *My friend said that yes, she had bought more cans of mace also. *I assured her that if someone did invade her house , which is in an exclusive neighborhood, that she would not have time to reload anyway, so the existing box of shells and 4 cans of mace she had on hand should last her until more vital supplies are shipped in.

When I lived in Baton Rouge I used to go around to clean her pool every weekend and a couple of years back she got really nervous when a rapist was doing his thing so she had taken to keeping the loaded gun by her bed. *Ever since then I admit I was just a little nervous if I was around there before she was up on a Saturday morning. *(I had a key to the locked gate into her garden so I could clean her pool whenever it most convenient).

So, yes, accidental shootings are a problem IMHO.

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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 05:40 PM   #15
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Good point. *This happened to a friend of mine a couple of months ago in West Chester, PA. *He was 46, and I went up for the funeral as they were both very good friends and colleagues. *Both he and his wife were regular members of the local gun club, so he was hardly inexperienced.

I don't own a gun and my DW wouldn't hear of it, even though I would definitely consider one now that the kids have left home. *

Just this afternoon I was talking to a good friend in Baton Rouge. *She is in her 70's and was saying that since the influx of evacuees from NOLA she tried to get more ammo for her handgun (the last gun I handled in fact was her large caliber revolver). *Apparently the Police supply store is sold out of ammo and mace, which I had read about yesterday. *My friend said that yes, she had bought more cans of mace also. *I assured her that if someone did invade her house , which is in an exclusive neighborhood, that she would not have time to reload anyway, so the existing box of shells and 4 cans of mace she had on hand should last her until more vital supplies are shipped in.

When I lived in Baton Rouge I used to go around to clean her pool every weekend and a couple of years back she got really nervous when a rapist was doing his thing so she had taken to keeping the loaded gun by her bed. *Ever since then I admit I was just a little nervous if I was around there before she was up on a Saturday morning. *(I had a key to the locked gate into her garden so I could clean her pool whenever it most convenient).

So, yes, accidental shootings are a problem IMHO.

Okay, so it's a problem. So what? No, I won't quote Al Pacino again.
Even I have my limits, although you folks surely test my powers of
restraint

JG
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-04-2005, 05:49 PM   #16
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

Quote:
Okay, so it's a problem. So what? No, I won't quote Al Pacino again. Even I have my limits, although you folks surely test my powers of restraint JG
I'm gonna have to agree with G on this one. People blowing off their own knee caps and such while cleaning a gun , whether they are well skilled and careful, simply careless , or drunk on their ass F***-heads... NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with one's right to defend themsleves, or OTHER people's right/ability to avail themselves of a firearm.

Lots of people slip in the shower but don't tell me I can't take a shower because oter pioeple are stupid or clumsy and the implication is therefore *I* might be stupid or clumsy
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-05-2005, 08:24 AM   #17
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

We own guns. I got my first gun when I was maybe 8 or 9 years old.

Doesn't make me feel better or worse.
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-05-2005, 09:16 AM   #18
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

"No, I own guns and it makes me feel better though."

Feel better about what? Poorly worded question. I own 2 handguns that I use for sport shooting (at cardboard targets). I feel good about scoreing well - just like when I have a good round of golf.
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-05-2005, 09:26 AM   #19
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

My husband has firearms and I feel very safe knowing he would kill to protect me and our girls. However, guns scare the crap out of me and I would probably be worthless if I had to use one to protect my family.
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection
Old 09-05-2005, 11:55 AM   #20
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Re: Reality and your concepts of self protection

From my book, Rookie Cop;

People believe the strangest things about firearms: a shotgun blast will cause an automobile to burst into flames and blow up, a bullet fired from a handgun will physically knock a person down, a single round from a pistol will stop a determined assailant.* Nonsense.* But after watching such feats performed a mind numbing number of times on television and in the cinema, and not having any practical experience otherwise, what else would people think?
In fact, shotgun pellets, even the larger ones used by police such as double-O buckshot, when fired into an automobile, simply puts holes into a car's sheet metal.* There is no reason a fire, and certainly never an explosion, would result.* As far as what is depicted on movie screens as the result of gunfights –whether they be fantasy westerns or James Bond shoot'em up scenes– the script writers have altered the laws of physics to suite their needs.* Clint Eastwood's facing down half a dozen villains on a dusty western street and instantly immobilizing them with his deadly accurate rapid fire, this from models of handguns that were historically known to be slow to get into action, marginally reliable at best, inherently inaccurate and only of limited power, defies logic.* A gunfight, in truth, was then, and is today, often the prelude to hand to hand combat.
A century ago a "cowboy’s" handgun was more often then not whatever weapon a person had the money to buy at the moment.* These men could ill afford the expensive cartridges needed to practice often enough to become truly competent marksmen.* Many of the handguns they carried were small caliber revolvers.* They did indeed shoot one another, not in face to face "slapping leather"* or "quick draw" contests but more often at arms’ length distance over some petty dispute at a poker game and after much consumption of alcohol.* Their handguns were lethal less at the moment of discharge than a few weeks later, due to the blood poisoning that resulted from the filthy little slugs festering in their victims’ bodies.

A .38 special revolver fires a lead pellet that weighs about a third of an ounce.* The bullet is spit out of the weapon's muzzle at a speed ranging from 800 to 1,000 feet per second.* That's just under the speed of sound.* Upon entering the human body, a modern well designed projectile will begin to expand, damaging and sometimes destroying whatever tissue it pushes through and past.* Unless a human is struck in the central nervous system, or there is a violent disruption to the body's ability to pump oxygen rich blood to the brain, the battle has just begun.* That is why animals are slaughtered by a bullet to the brain and the muzzle of a professional killer's pistol is placed to the back of the victim's head.

When a person is fighting for their life, adrenaline rushes through the body.* In an actual gunfight, frequently there is no pain associated with the initial wounds.* That comes later, which is why it sometimes takes dozens of handgun rounds to stop a determined adversary.* When the police are involved, and a civilian is struck numerous times, the cry "excessive force" rings out.* The fact is, it may take several minutes from the time a lethal wound is inflicted, to the moment the body stops functioning.* All the while, the threat that person presents is very real.

A retired Marine Corps major once told me of an incident he witnessed in Vietnam.* His platoon was ambushed in an open area.* The marines charged the enemy.* The marine running next to the major, firing his battle rifle, took a round which blew his head off his body.* The corpse continued running forward, discharging his weapon until empty, then collapsed.

There is neither glamour nor glory involved in a gunfight.* In the real world there is never a soundtrack playing.* There is no script to follow.* A gunfight is a bloody, chaotic, frightening mess which often ends up in a tie; the result being two or more dead or wounded people.* Survivors of gunshot wounds are often permanently crippled.* Life is not a movie.
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